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Shaming the Muslims Out of Islam (by Telling the Truth)

Posted by Bill Warner on 7/22/09 • Categorized as Op-Ed

When I read MA Khan’s new book, Islamic Jihad, I was struck by two things, the high quality of his scholarship and an emerging historical trend.

Khan is firmly in the Foundationalist School of scholarship. He does not indulge opinion, but bases his work on the Islamic doctrine of jihad and its historical effects on civilization, with a focus on the destruction of India. He investigates and documents two little known areas–the Sufis and the enslavement of the Hindus.

The excellence of his book is part of an historic pattern. When Islam attacked us on September 11, 2001 we were unprepared for war. Our intellectuals were spineless dhimmis who have been bought and paid for by the Saudis and the Muslim Brotherhood, and as a result, were apologists and not able to defend our civilization.

However, in one of the more remarkable intellectual events in history, a new type of intellectual was drawn into the study of Islam. Trained critical and scientific thinkers who were amateurs in the field of Islam applied their critical reasoning to this subject and produced a wealth of excellent books and articles. The new Islamic scholarship was fact-driven and took up Islam’s challenge of war.

Khan’s Islamic Jihad is an excellent intellectual weapon.

BW: Welcome Mr. Khan. Tell us about your motivation behind writing this book.

Khan: Thank you Bill giving me this opportunity to share my thoughts on the kind of danger the progressive world faces from an Islamic resurgence and how we deal with it.

What we are witnessing today in Muslim countries-namely in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, and Sudan etc-is the Talibanization or Saudization of the society, i.e., the establishment of Sharia in all spheres of life and society. In other Muslim countries, the demand for the same is solidifying; in a few decades, the face of the entire Islamic world will dramatically change.

The Islamic world is heading toward that which it embraces: Islam as a complete code of life, as believed by every Muslim. This transformation seems inescapable at this moment. But our major concern now is the infidel world, particularly the West. The native population in Europe is declining from low birthrate, while Muslims are procreating at unbridled rates. In the UK, Muslim population is increasing 10 times faster than the rest; the trend should be similar in other Western European countries. And where does this lead? By the middle of this century, Muslims will become the largest religious group in Europe.

And what will happen under that circumstance? We can easily make a guess. Take the example of Pakistan: in elections, only 10% of Pakistanis support parties that seek to institute Sharia rule. Now look at Britain: some 40% of the Muslims support Sharia rule, with only 37% opposed. This figure, I believe, is skewed to a good extent as Muslims don’t speak the truth. Nonetheless, what these figures mean is that a much greater proportion of Muslims living in the West are Sharia-loving or Taliban minded as compared to those living in Islamic countries like Pakistan or Afghanistan. Therefore, unless the mentality of Western Muslims changes drastically in coming decades, which is unlikely, the Talibanization of Europe would become an inescapable reality by the middle of this century, undoubtedly spreading to North America, Australia, Russia and India.

We know what Sharia means to civilized humanity. We witness it in Saudi Arabia; we witness it in Afghanistan under the Taliban; we witness it in Talibanized areas of Pakistan. We clearly know that the plight of women-Muslim or not-would become worse. Treatment of non-Muslims is horrible and extremely degrading under Sharia rule: it is happening in Taliban-occupied regions in Pakistan. The Hindus and Sikhs are being subjected to humiliating jizya, which is an exorbitant discriminatory tax for the security of the life and property of non-Muslims in Islamic state (see Quran 9:29). The Taliban attacked the Sikh community in Orakzai for failing to pay the demanded jizya, slayed the men, took possession of their homes and properties, and enslaved the women and children, in accordance with the Quranic commands (33:26) and Muhammad’s example of dealing with the Jewish tribe of Banu Quraiza [M.A. Khan, Islamic Jihad, p47-49]. Thousands of Hindus have already relocated to India in recent months in order to escape the Taliban oppression.

What is at stake today is obviously the Talibanization of globe-that is, the establishment of the governance of the Quran and Sunnah (i.e. Sharia) globally-which is a central demand of the Quran (2:193, 8:39), and the ultimate goal of Islam. And that will be the worst disaster ever to befall humankind. Therefore, averting this Talibanization of the world, which seems inescapable at this moment unless something drastic happens, should be the central concern for the civilized humanity as I see it. My book is an effort to make the world, both Muslim and non-Muslim, understand what Jihad, the scourge of our time, truly means for our future and take real measures to defeat it.

BW: How do you think we must fight battle?

Khan: In recent years, many ingenious measures have been tried and are being tried: the global war on terror, regime change in Afghanistan and Iraq for spreading freedom, democracy and modernity, and efforts to engage and work with the so-called moderate Muslims for winning the hearts and minds of the wider Muslim community etc. But nothing is working; since the 9/11 attacks in the U.S., the number of Jihadis, in the form of numerous radical Islamic groups around the world, are increasing exponentially. The overall Muslim mindset is also becoming increasingly radicalized everywhere, including the West.

There are also many initiatives amongst the so-called moderate Muslims to reform Islam. Many of these Muslims are also making rewarding careers in the guise of their phony reform campaigns. But attempts at reformation as occurred in Christianity, which was basically going back to the root, the originality of the religion, makes things worse in the case of Islam. A genuine and successful effort by the brilliant Saudi scholar Abdul Wahhab (1703-91) to reform Islam, in the mold of reformation of Christianity by Martin Luther (1483-1546), gave birth to Wahhabism, the Islamic scourge that we are confronting today. Efforts to reform Islam away from orthodoxy, i.e., along a rational and humanistic line, have been tried by some powerful Islamic rulers, namely the Baghdad caliphs, al-Mamun, al-Mutassim and al-Wathik (813-847), as well as Akbar the Great in India. They were the greatest monarchs in the world of their time and ruthlessly dictatorial. While they effected some positive changes during their rule, soon after their departure, it was all overturned. Islamic orthodoxy struck back with greater brutality and horror in every instance.

Thus, efforts at reformation have worsened the situation or failed. Any new attempt at reforming Islam is meaningless today because Muslims are becoming well-educated and can read the Quran, which has been translated in all major languages, by themselves. They are no less intelligent than the “reformers” and can understand what the verses of the Quran truly mean. Reformation in the age of modern education is a meaningless exercise and is destined to failure.

What might work, something that has not been tried, is what I personally call ’shaming the Muslims out of Islam’. Islam is a horrible and shameful ideology, unfit for the civilized world. But most Muslims, who are average human beings, do not know what is actually in the Quran and Sunnah, or, they have never analyzed the contents of Islam’s fundamental texts critically. They have no idea what it means to be a true Muslim and how shameful it is in the modern civilized conscience. If they are made aware of the true nature of Islam, they will leave this barbaric and dehumanizing cult in large numbers. Islam will be condemned to the dustbin of history where it always belonged.

This is the only measure that has not been tried. And I have been trying exactly that in my Website, islam-watch.org http://www.islam-watch.org/iw-new/index.php (founded November 2005): “Telling the Truth about Islam”. And my book, Islamic Jihad, is also an extension of that effort. I have convincing evidence that it will work.

BW: Would you elaborate on the shaming of Muslims and how it would work?

Khan: If you look closely at the history of Islam, you would realize that Islamic orthodoxy, with its violent underpinnings of Jihad, has tremendous resilience. As elaborated already, every attempt to reform it from within was followed by its resurgence with greater ferocity. From the 19th century onward, the European colonial powers did effect significant changes in the Islamic world like the equality of religions, liberation of slaves, and the ideas of secularism, progressiveness and modernity. But after colonial withdrawal, these positive changes are all being over turned. Humanity is now being threatened by Islamic orthodoxy and its Jihadis, on a scale unprecedented in history.

What these factors tell us is that attempt to reform and secularize Islam is not only doomed to failure, but its survival in any form will turn calamitous to humanity. So those, who care for our progressive and modernist civilization, particularly those in position of power, must understand this critical factor while dealing with Islam. We probably have time, this time round, to save humanity from the ongoing scourge of Islam, albeit sustaining damages of whatsoever scale it may be, we will be left with no such option if Islam has another opportunity to strike.

So the need of the hour is to break the back of Islam once and for all. And here comes into play the idea of ’shaming the Muslims out of Islam’. What we need is to discredit Islam root and branch, to the level of cells and atoms. This is not difficult to achieve. Simply telling the truth about Islam will do.

I have already mentioned: ‘Islam is a horrible and shameful ideology, unfit for the civilized world.’ The thing is, most Muslims have little idea of what Islam truly is, what it means to be a true Muslim. Most of them, particularly outside the Arab world, are ignorant about Islam; very few of them read the basic texts of Islam with a proper understanding. They know about Islam mainly from hearsay as part of their growing up. And when it comes to living their life, they are under tremendous influence of the kafir world from their surrounding, through the media, through all the goodies the kafir world bring to them.

At the same time, they also remain indoctrinated rather subconsciously with the cardinal thoughts in Islam, namely:
1. Islam is a complete code of life,
2. Islam is the perfect religion and Muhammad was the ideal man for all time; therefore, both are beyond questioning or criticism,
3. Only Muslims are destined to receive God’s succor, and
4. Islam will eventually dominate the world, i.e. all people will become Muslim some day.

This subconscious indoctrination of the so-called moderate or liberal majority of Muslims easily plays into the hands of the extremists. When the extremists make noise on the ground that the prophet has been defamed or blasphemed or that Islam has been insulted, both being perfect and beyond finger-pointing in their subconscious mind, they too join the orgasmic frenzy with the extremists. We have seen this in the controversy over Salman Rushdie’s Satanic Verses, and more recently, over the printing of Prophet Muhammad’s cartoons in a Danish paper or Pope Benedict’s comment on Muhammad.

I think that this so-called moderate variety of Muslims can easily be dissociated from Islam. What we need to do is to say the truth that Islam is not a “religion of peace” as goes the popular discourse, but a barbaric, inhuman and uncivilized cult; that Muhammad was not a noble, a perfect man for all time, but he was a brutal plunderer and mass-murderer lusting for power, wealth and sex; that he was a sex-maniac with a pedophilic urge for a kid as young as six when he was in his 50s and not far from death; that Islam, as initiated by Prophet Muhammad, is a barbaric institution of imperialism, forced conversion, and slavery and sex-concubinage. Islam, as depicted in its sacred texts, is more horrifying than this.

What we need is to hold the pages of the Quran, prophetic traditions and biographies, and Islamic history bare to Muslims and to the world. This will be enough to shame the Muslims out of Islam.

Why would this work? Let me start with my own example. I was one such liberal/moderate Muslim. When 9/11 occurred, I felt that the attack was rather justified because of the United States’ unjust policies toward the Palestinians. I was lucky, I should say, that I was already involved in some internet groups that were critical of Islam. But after the 9/11 attacks, as critical analysis of Islam, the Quran and hadiths flourished dramatically, I became a defender of Islam for quite some time. I continued to resist looking into the basic texts of Islam, the Quran, Sunnah and Muhammad’s biographies for 2-3 years. But I eventually read them, and I was shattered and frustrated with myself. I was ashamed because the Quran reads like a manual of unconditional war against non-Muslims, Muhammad was one of the most horrible, if not the worst, human being in the history of mankind. And I had believed that Islam was the most perfect and peaceful religion, a perfect code to human life, for 35+ years of my life.

For a Muslim, living Islam is the most difficult thing in the world, and this was the case with me. Only when I read the basic text of Islam and understood its truth was I able to leave Islam with ease. If I hadn’t read these texts, I couldn’t have mastered the courage to leave Islam despite the horrible things Muslim Jihadis continued to perpetrate, or howsoever hard the critics would criticize those fanatics.

Similarly, after reading my website, islam-watch.org, and faithfreedom.org etc.-websites that focus on the criticisms of Islam based on its foundations: the Quran, the Sunnah, and Prophet Muhammad-many Muslims are leaving Islam, even some potential suicide-bombers and mosque imams amongst them. I have testimonies from Muslims, who considered themselves “Muslims for life” just a couple of months ago, that they would never leave the most fulfilling creed of Islam. But after reading my book, which basically expose the true nature of Jihad against the popular discourse that it is a peaceful struggle with the self, against vice, for eradication of poverty, for human rights and women’s rights etc., they found their whole life, based on a lie, was shattered. Their faith in Islam was shattered.

So the challenge in front of us is to bare the foundation of the Islamic creed in front of these so-called moderate/liberal Muslims and to make them read the foundational texts of Islam. Once they do that, a majority of them will find their faith in Islam shattered. And there it begins: the collapse of Islam like a castle of sands. Humanity will be rescued from its lasting horrors once and for all.

BW: There has been a good deal of truth-telling about Islam since the 9/11. But it is not working so far; we are not winning the battle. What do you think is need to be done?

Khan: That’s absolutely true. A lot of literature has been produced, particularly in the form of books, telling the truth about Islam. But you must also take into account that a much greater volume of literature has been produced, selling the lies of Islam. Let me emphasize that for ’shaming the Muslims out of Islam’, we need books and literature focusing the Quran, Sunnah and Islamic history, books like Ibn Warraq’s Why I Am Not A Muslim, Andrew Bostom’s Legacy of Jihad, Dr. Ali Sina’s Understanding Muhammad, and probably my Islamic Jihad. Very few penetrative books of this type, except those of Ibn Warraq and Bostom, have been successful. Most books of this type are not picked up by reputed publishers, fearing Muslim backlash; they are often being self-published published and receive little attention. Most important factor of all is that very few Muslims, who in general have a very poor book-buying and reading habit, buy books like these.

Therefore, those books, telling the truth about Islam, have very little impact on Muslims, our prime target. On the other hand, books telling the lies about Islam, which are produced in much larger volumes and the media is eager to promote, are the books that most Muslims and non-Muslims buy. So we have, on the whole, a nullification of the impact of truth-telling books by the lies-telling ones.

And when it comes to the news media, which Muslims read to a large extent: there the truth-telling is largely absent; lies-telling is overwhelmingly prevalent. Our mainstream media (MSM) is based on lies, on falsehood, when it comes to the coverage of Islam. And whatever little truth-telling is done, very little of it is focused on the foundational texts and doctrines of Islam.

The MSM is the biggest culprit, the biggest accomplice, in the success of radical Islam. They are most eager to circulate the messages-audio-tapes and videos etc.-of Osama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and other top al-Qaeda and radical Islamic leaders and ideologues as such. And getting these messages to Muslim audience, harboring potential recruits, is crucial to the success, with which the radical Islamic agenda is progressing. At the same time, the MSM rigorously filter out the few voices that are trying to focus their criticism on the foundations of Islam, criticism that will matter in enlightening both Muslims and non-Muslims about Islam and in shaming the Muslims out of it.

The same goes with the internet. It has played tremendous role in the success of al-Qaeda and like-minded radical Islamic groups in spreading their messages, which is the linchpin of their tremendous success in popularizing their violent mission and recruiting cadres. While the truth-tellers have some success there, where they can spread their messages with relative freedom, but there are only few such websites with limited readership against a deluge of pro-Islam and militant Islamic websites. And most of all, the truth-telling websites are banned in most Islamic countries, and even in the West. For example, most educational institutions in Australia have banned all truth-telling websites, namely faithfreedom.org, thereligionofpeace.com, jihadwatch.org, islam-watch.org and islammonior.org amongst others categorizing them as hate-sites.

So, it will become clear why we are not making significant ground in our truth-telling efforts. The outcome of this battle, I think, will be determined by the media. We must recognize that the investment of hundreds of billions of dollars annually in strengthening intelligence apparatus, tightening security and the war of terror is going waste. Some of these measures are also working counter to their intended objectives, by helping the radicalization of the Muslim mind on various grievances, howsoever unjustified they may be. And of course, it is causing loss of lives in large numbers on both sides.

In the media, we can kill this menace with a small fraction of the investment and with much less loss in life and properties. The battle can be won with ease. Muslims can ignore the noise made by truth-tellers, often discredited as fringe Muslim-hating Islamophobes, in a negligible few and little-known websites, but they cannot ignore the Mainstream Media. When the truth-tellers get the opportunity to bare the fundamental sacred texts of Islam in the pages of the MSM to show how horrible and barbaric the cult of Islam is, Muslims at all levels would be forced to defend their creed by looking into those texts. Every attempt to defend Islam would lead to their enlightenment about the filth and inhumanity that lies at its heart.

We have more than convincing evidence to affirm that the so-called peaceful majority of moderate/liberal Muslims, ashamed, frustrated, and angered of what they have unwittingly believed for their whole life, would start leaving Islam en masse. The West’s problem would be solved in a decade or two with the collapse of Islam; I can challenge you on that. From there, the remedy to the Islamic problem in the rest of the world, including Muslim countries, would soon begin.

The fact is that the Islamists have tremendous advantages against the truth-tellers in every aspect of this battle. The truth-tellers are fighting this battle against mountainous odds: their opponents have annual investment of billions of dollars against zero on their own side; the Islamists have almost all the ground in the MSM, the decisive battleground of this struggle.

I realize that there is little chance of this changing at all. The future of this battle remains hugely tilted toward the Islamist side as of now. The Talibanization of the globe remain an inescapable possibility unless circumstances changes drastically, possibly horribly.

BW: Thank you for enlightening us, Mr. Khan.

Bill Warner
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305 Comments

1.
krishna786
July 22, 2009 • 6:27 pm

Dears,please check out this video “The Third Jihad” http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-864522917532871834
2.
Raisinhead
July 22, 2009 • 6:36 pm

Taliban need to know that we fight back today. If they want to really try to demean the lesser of us they better thank again. the allah of infidels told us to fight back and kill you. allah loves us too loool. Allah gave us the bomb you want. Allah of infidels freed Africans from slavery. Our allah told us that Muslims are not worth saving so he came over to the infidel side.
3.
Moooo
July 22, 2009 • 7:06 pm

And don’t forget about taliban’s supporters here in this site. Taliban want sharia, muslims here also want it. The deceptive big mouths are taliban’s accomplice.
4.
paarsurrey
July 22, 2009 • 11:53 pm

Hi friend Bill Warner

I think you got it wrong to say ,”When Islam attacked us on September 11, 2001″. Islam is a religion; not a person; it never attacked. It were the terrorists that attacked; I think you will revise and correct your sentence.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
5.
ibnsahr
July 23, 2009 • 1:19 am

paarsurrey,

you haven’t go to mental clinic yet?
the terrorist chantting “allahu akbar” before slamming the damn things in to the the damn buildings
is “allahu akbar” = islam
islam is a cult, if you don’t want me to called it pile of sh*t.
go see doctor and take half of your rotten’s brain out,
i can ignore jah and laugh about him, but this guy is insane
6.
Marie
July 23, 2009 • 2:52 am

Amputation of limbs as punishment will “bring you more peace and security”.
July 21st, 2009 Ahmed Leave a comment Go to comments

Yep. That is what Sheikh Suhaib Hasan offers Brits.

Hardline Islamic penal codes, such as the amputation of limbs as punishment for theft, would make Britain a safer and better place, the founder of the country’s oldest sharia court has told The Times.

Sheikh Suhaib Hasan, the secretary of the Islamic Sharia Council, said that the enforcement of such laws was “something to bring you more peace and security”.

Dr Hasan, who presides over a sharia court in East London that rules on civil matters such as divorce, emphasised that he neither sought nor expected the implementation of the criminal penal code in Britain because it was not a Muslim country.

He said, however, that problems such as knife crime would be better resolved if harsher puni…
7.
Marie
July 23, 2009 • 2:55 am

One Million Failed Asylum Invaders Get Free NHS Treatment
Calais migrants scum, riffraff, third world crims ambush Britons at knifepoint in terrifying ‘highway robberies’

* This has been going on for a long time, previously it was mostly the truckers that were attacked and robbed. Now its the tourists. But hey: its all about cultural enrichment, and these poor deprived people are just following their prophets teachings. Who are we to judge, right? Right?

By JAMES SLACK and IAN SPARKS/Daily Mail

Migrant gangs in Calais are targeting British holidaymakers in terrifying ‘highway robberies’.

Would-be illegal immigrants are forming human roadblocks to force motorists passing through the French port town to stop.

Travellers are then robbed at knifepoint by the migrants, who are desperate for funds to help them sneak into the UK.

A group of migrants in Calais

On the move: A group of migrants in Calais. Some have been robbing British travellers at the French port town as they try and find enough funds to help them sneak into the UK

Last night police in Calais issued a warning to the nine million Britons a year who pass through Calais – the equivalent of 25,000 every day.

They urged motorists to keep their windows closed and doors locked until they are safely inside the ferry terminal.

Officers said they had received several reports from holidaymakers of having to ‘run a gauntlet’ of migrants between the town and the ferry port.

One British couple reported being forced to stop by bedraggled refugees on the port approach road last week.

A Calais police spokesman said: ‘Frontier police received a report from a British couple who said the gang formed a human chain across the road to stop them.

‘Around six of them then surrounded the car and waved a knife in the male driver’s face and demanded cash. He threw his wallet out of the window and sped off. The refugees fled into the woods on foot.’
Riot police face migrants in Calais following a morning raid in April

Unrest: Riot police face migrants in Calais following a morning raid in April

Police said several days later another British family ploughed through a refugee roadblock, knocking down and injuring one of the migrants.

Robert Moncrieff, 80, following in a car close behind, said: ‘There was a refugee lying in the road who looked injured. He was surrounded by several of his accomplices.

‘We drove straight past and when we reached the port, the driver told us the refugees had tried to flag him down but he had driven through them and knocked one over.’

The police spokesman added: ‘We advise drivers to drive slowly at anyone blocking the road, giving the clear intention you do not want to be stopped.

‘If the road remains blocked, keep the windows closed and doors locked, and call the police. Drivers should take any opportunity to drive away once the road is clear.’

He added: ‘We are stepping up security and police patrols in the area around the port, especially over the busy summer months.’
France’s immigration minister Eric Besson

Promises: France’s immigration minister Eric Besson has vowed to bulldoze Calais, where a London journalist was raped

Since the closure of the Red Cross refugee centre at Sangatte in 2002, would-be migrants have been sleeping rough in and around Calais while they attempt to sneak on board cross-Channel trains and ferries.

There are currently around 2,000, many living in a squalid camp known as the Jungle, which the French government has said will not be cleared away until next year.

In April immigration minister Eric Besson vowed to bulldoze the litter-strewn shanty town – where a London journalist was raped by a migrant last year – after admitting it had become a hotbed for people smugglers and criminal gangs.

But he has now said the camp must remain in place until it can be dismantled ‘in a dignified manner’.

French politicians have blamed Britain for the return of migrant camps to Calais.

The mayor of Calais, Natacha Bouchart, said the lure of the UK’s ‘enormous’ state handouts to asylum-seekers was the reason why thousands of foreigners are using the French port as a staging point to get across the Channel.

Mrs Bouchart said the UK Government’s policies were ‘imposing’ thousand of migrants on the town, costing the local economy millions of pounds.

Earlier this month, Gordon Brown agreed to give France £15million for new technology to search vehicles heading for Britain.

In return, France undertook to step up the repatriation of illegal immigrants.

Last night a UK Border Agency spokesman said: ‘We are confident the French authorities will take any action necessary to protect those travelling back to Britain.’

So who’s planning on taking a trip to Europe during the summer?
8.
Kam Baksh
July 23, 2009 • 5:20 am

Parsurrey:

Since when Ahmadiyas have become muslims? The Quadiyanis, AKA Ahmadiyas, have never accepted finality of Mohammd, so how can you be muslims when you doubt the very Kalima?

You every sentence is wrong. Islam is not a religion but a cult of Mohammad.
Those who attacked were puritanical Mohammedans. Tell us how it was not so.
Islam surely needs drummer boys like you to survive.
9.
Moooo
July 23, 2009 • 8:00 pm

ibnsahr wrote:

“the terrorist chantting “allahu akbar” before slamming the damn things in to the the damn buildings
is “allahu akbar” = islam”

Not only “allahu barbar”, but they also holding quran as a guideline for terror, just as pedo mo did back then. The pedo mo won with terror and sudden attack (similar to present terrorist).

“islam is a cult, if you don’t want me to called it pile of sh*t.”

Pile of muhammad’s sh*t to be more precise, and muslim are very happy eating that SH*T then offer the SH*T to non-muslims.
10.
jonc
July 23, 2009 • 9:11 pm

PaarSurrey / IbnSahr:

The fact that the 9/11 terrorists were chanting” Allah-akbar!” and waiving Korans when they committed mass murder should not be used per se to condemn Islam.
I remind people that Christian Crusaders cried “Deos Vult!” (=”God wills it”) when they carried out their atrocities as well.

The real question is this:
Were the actions of any particular group in accordance with, or in opposition to, the teachings of their religion?

Given the’ verses of violence and terror’ in the Koran, then (at the very least) the case can be made (and most certainly is, esp. by Wahhabis) that the actions of the 9/11 mass-murderers are in accordance with Islam.
Indeed, one could go further and interpret certain verses in the Koran to show that Muslims must be in a perpetual state of war with non-muslims until the whole World is under Islamic control.
Again, certain Islamic groups and schools of thought do just that and regrettably, it is these schools that seem to have teh greatest influence.

Contrast this with the Crusaders: Had they read the New Testament, they would have found no religious justification for atrocity or brutality and precious little for war itself.
(NB: This is not to say that the crusades were, of themselves, unjustifiable under Christian rules.)

Thus I think that MA Khan (not B.Warner btw) is at least partly accurate to say “when Islam attacked us on 9/11…” since Islam itself justifies and promotes such action.
Where I might differ, is to point out that Westerners (including both UK and US) have been the victims of Islamic terror way before 9/11 (Luxor Massacre, Lockerbie etc).

Perhaps he should have said “When Islam attacked us again…”
11.
R_not
July 23, 2009 • 9:12 pm

Paarsurrey, you know as well as all of us know that islam is not only a religion but politics, a legal system and basically a way to control people right down to what they do in their bedrooms and bathrooms. In fact, if you look at islam and how it was taught by Muhammed, I think, it is more of a political system that uses all its religious rites as a front to gain entry into countries under the guise of ‘religion’.

People are never sure they are saved, in order to be saved the things that are required (jihad which is explained in 97% of the Islamic passages is to do violence), are atrocities against a fellow human being. Of which, ‘human being’ is not even a concept in islam – only believers vs unbelievers. And islam is in a constant state of war with unbelievers which means anything goes against unbelievers. It doesn’t even respect more than half of its population, of women or even of people who are in a different sect of islam.

Its goals are imperialistic and either deadly, or a way of enslavement (subjugation and also slavery), of anyone who rejects islam and all of its junk that claims it is a religion.

And then when it gets its way of conquest – it has absolutely nothing to offer and instead sucks the lifeblood out of the dhimmi until they are as mindless as the muslims.

One thing we keep on doing is just blindly accepting what comes out of the muslim’s mouths. We never question what their definitions of words are such as ‘innocent, ‘oppression’, ’sin’, etc. If we did we would start seeing that it is the complete opposite of what we know of these words and would start realizing that ‘moderates’ do not exist. It is only a wish on our part. Bad (hypocrites) and good muslims exists though – and that is all explained in the koran.
12.
R_not
July 23, 2009 • 9:23 pm

I really loved what this article had to say and it, to me, is the truth.

Coming up against Muslims is not easy though, and our own are even worse, when they are in full ‘apologetic mode’ (as I say). But, I just keep on referencing the koran, hadiths and sira. Types like paarsurrey who want to give us his translation are not valid because he is not one of the accepted translators.

Unfortunately, we have a TV that is in full ‘apologetic mode’ and making the muslims out to be victims in various stories and then not telling the full truth in such stories as ‘The Secrets of the Koran’ on the History channel. I write to them (I wish EVERYONE would write to them) and tell them where they went off track and they do not respond. But, if they cannot be trusted with this history how can they be trusted with any history they shovel out?!

Being in Act for America, we get notice of articles that we can login and respond to on various news outlets. I never miss an opportunity to do that.

And Mr. Sina’s book, ‘Understanding Mohammed’ is very good. I use that as reference all the time! Muslims especially do not like the conclusions of this book, but I just keep going and referencing their own texts.
13.
paarsurrey
July 24, 2009 • 11:52 am

Hi everybody here

I agree with the following comments dated July 23, 2009 of brother jonc
‎
PaarSurrey / IbnSahr:
‎
The fact that the 9/11 terrorists were chanting” Allah-akbar!” and waiving Korans when ‎they committed mass murder should not be used per se to condemn Islam.

I remind people that Christian Crusaders cried “Deos Vult!” (=”God wills it”) when they ‎carried out their atrocities as well.
‎
The real question is this:‎
‎
Were the actions of any particular group in accordance with, or in opposition to, the ‎teachings of their religion?
‎
Contrast this with the Crusaders: Had they read the New Testament, they would have ‎found no religious justification for atrocity or brutality and precious little for war itself.
‎
Jonc got it alright; though to some extent.
‎
Thanks brother jonc

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
14.
londonspirit
July 24, 2009 • 2:52 pm

To Bill Warner

Y ou talk about how impressed you are by the intellect of Mr. Khan, but your just claming what he says is right without no prior knowledge of whether he is talking the truth or not.

YOU WROTE: What we are witnessing today in Muslim countries-namely in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, and Sudan etc-is the Talibanization or Saudization of the society, i.e., the establishment of Sharia in all spheres of life and society. In other Muslim countries, the demand for the same is solidifying; in a few decades, the face of the entire Islamic world will dramatically change.

ANSWER: Sharia is a law, to bring about a good way of life. it does not indudge in any way of killing inncent people. Just like britain and other countries impose laws likewise saudia arabia imposes the shariah law. There is absolutely nothing wrong with imposing shariah law. Yes it may have some punishments that may be barbaric or inhumane in the modern day, such as cutting hands of for theft and lashing for comitting fornication. But it is your fault if you get these punishments and the way to avoid it is simple to not do it.

Why dont you Bill find a law of the shariah that says that we should kill innocent people who are not muslim and that woman are not allowed education.

YOU WROTE: And what will happen under that circumstance? We can easily make a guess. Take the example of Pakistan: in elections, only 10% of Pakistanis support parties that seek to institute Sharia rule. Now look at Britain: some 40% of the Muslims support Sharia rule, with only 37% opposed.

ANSWER: This is total utter nonsense because although birth rate plays a large volume in increasing religious population it isnt the main factor. The main factor is that alot of these europeans are now moving away from chrisitanity into a new way which is darwinism. That is why christianity in europe is declining. Another reason why chrisitanity is not only declining in europe but in america is because alot are converting from chrsitianity to islam, take russia for example, this country has an increasing number of people converting from orthadox christianity to islam. Britian is another prime example where churches are closing down at an alarming rate and mosques are being built not because of immigration but because english people are leaving the chrisitan fath for islam. That is a prime reason why not by mid century but in a few decades islam will be biggest relgion in the world. An to say 40% of muslims want shariah rule in britian and europe is total nonse. This is because a lot of the muslims in this country enjoy drinking, taking alcohol doing fornication and many things else. They have a more western culture to them because they have been brought up in that enviroment.

YOU WROTE: Treatment of non-Muslims is horrible and extremely degrading under Sharia rule: it is happening in Taliban-occupied regions in Pakistan. The Hindus and Sikhs are being subjected to humiliating jizya, which is an exorbitant discriminatory tax for the security of the life and property of non-Muslims in Islamic state

ANSWER: Please find me information in islam from the quran where it says that non-muslims should be degraded. I am very curious to know this verse. What the taliban do is not islam or shariah. It is stupid and done due to their own understanding and beliefs.
15.
Marie
July 24, 2009 • 8:32 pm

londonspirit I am still waiting for your response to my debate on the forums ( I’ve been waiting for 5 days ). If you don’t respond my tomorrow night ( U.S. time ), I am taking it down and you can forgot about debating me.
16.
londonspirit
July 24, 2009 • 8:36 pm

Marie I do want a debate. I have been job searching. And i tried searching for the post but couldnt find it, and this new edition of this website doesnt allow me to return to older posts or it may do but i dont know how to. I told you before create a post like this with your views and lets have a debate. Simple.
17.
jonc
July 24, 2009 • 9:08 pm

PaarSurry:
I am glad you agree with me in part at least.
Your ‘cut-and-paste’ of my comment is quite interesting, since you agree with my point about the Crusaders and say nothing about the Jihadists (though I didn’t use that name for them).

LS:
You wrote: “Sharia is a law, to bring about a good way of life.”
Guess what, I AGREE with you!
The only proviso I would add is that you are speaking from an entirely Moslem viewpoint (as is your right, of course).
The Musselman in particular has a good way of life brought about by Sharia law.
The Musselima less so.
The non-muslim, not at all.
You see, that is one big difference between religious Sharia and secular Western law, the secular law does not discriminate against any person on the basis of religion, colour, sex or anything else.
You are free, LS, in Britain, to practice your faith, build a mosque as you choose (short of incitement to violence in the former and with planning permission for the latter), prosletise on the streets, your wife can wear the Hejab or gil-bab if she (or you) want.
I, as a Christian, in say, the home of Islam, Suadia Arabia, cannot pray openly, display even a tiny (non-Islamic) religious symbol or build a Church because of Sharia law.
Sharia law discriminates in favour of the Umma (especially the men) and against the unbelievers.

You wrote: a lot of assertions about conversion to Islam without providing any facts, or even statistics, to back them up.
Here is a statistic: in the last UK census (2001) which, for the first time, asked people to provide religious information, 72% of the total responding UK population stated that they were Christian and 15% were agnostic/atheist, Muslims were in fourth place with ~2%. Of this ~2% (~1.1M), 947K were Pakistani/Bangladeshi. (Source: http://www.statistics.gov.uk)
This leaves a total of ~150 000 for moslems from ALL other Countries in the WORLD + UK converts.
Given that the UK has reasonably large populations from Asia/Arab Countries/Indian moslem etc, I’d say that the conversion rate is pretty low.
(NB I had to approximate the total number of Moslems because the graph section was soo small.)

You wrote: “Please find me information in islam from the quran where it says that non-muslims should be degraded.”
Try Sura 9:29.:
“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of Islam among the People of the Book, until they pay the until they pay the tribute …”
Hilali & Yusuf Ali then continue”…with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.”
Pickthall: “…readily, being brought low. ”
Shakir: “…in acknowledement of [Islamic] superiority and they are in a state of subjection.”
Rodwell: “…out of hand, and they be humbled”.

Now, I don’t know about you, but if I had to pay a special tax “in submission” to “acknowledge” the “superiority” of Moslems and was “subdued” and in a state of “humbled subjection”, I’d feel degraded as a human being.

Note: The only ‘context’ for this verse is 9:28, which tells Muslims that unbelievers are “unclean” or “impure” and that if Moslems are poor, then Allah will enrich them from loot. The verses before and after are on different subjects (how Allah gives the Moslems military victories and erroneous complaints about the beliefs of Jews and Christians, respectively).
18.
Marie
July 24, 2009 • 9:52 pm

We’ll have the debate here. Sorry for the length but I never had an online debate, so I’m not familiar with the proper etiquette.

Marie VS. londonspirit

Postby Marie » Mon Jul 20, 2009 12:12 am
This debate is about the authenticity of the Quran being divine and the corruption of the Bible between me and londonspirit on this forum.
To spice up the challenge londonspirit said that if he lost he would convert to Christianity ( I told him I don’t expect him to convert to Christianity, it’s his choice to convert ) and if I lost, I must write an article apologizing about my harsh criticism about Islam ( These are posted on the main site ).

To start off the debate here is my arguments for the Bible and against the Quran:

Arguments for the Bible:

What archaeology says about the Bible

The Ugarit Tablets

In the 1920’s the Ugarit Tablets were found in the field of a Syrian farmer. 6 of the Ugarit texts tell us that the Canaanites did worship a fertility/rain god named Baal who is often mentioned in the old testament.

The Mari Tablets

The Mari Tablets were found in 1933 in the city of Mari, a semitic state in located in northern Mesopotamia. Among the twenty thousand tablets that were found are references to the Habiru ( Akkadian for Hebrew ) people. They were described as warlike wanderers and people from the otherside. This term might be a reference to the people of Israel after the crossing over of the River Jordan.

The House of David inscription

In 1993 Dr. Avraham Biran discovered a royal plaza as he excavated Tell Dan in northern Galilee at the foot of Matt. Hermon. Among the rubble he found remains of a black basalt stele, which had parts of thirteen lines of Aramaic inscriptions. From these inscriptions the following two phrases are clearly visible: “The king of Israel” and house of David.” The stele had been erected to celebrate the defeat of the kings of Judah and Israel.

The crucifixion in the Bible

While there is no concrete evidence that Jesus did exist, there is a description of how the Romans crucified people.

Info from wiki:

Cross shape

See also Cross or stake as gibbet on which Jesus died

Justus Lipsius: De cruce, p. 47
Image by Justus Lipsius of the crucifixion of Jesus
Crux simplex, a simple wooden stake. Image by Justus Lipsius.

The gibbet on which crucifixion was carried out could be of many shapes. Josephus describes multiple tortures and positions of crucifixion during the Siege of Jerusalem as Titus crucified the rebels;[12] and Seneca the Younger recounts: “I see crosses there, not just of one kind but made in many different ways: some have their victims with head down to the ground; some impale their private parts; others stretch out their arms on the gibbet.”[13]

At times the gibbet was only one vertical stake, called in Latin crux simplex or palus. This was the simplest available construction for torturing and killing the criminals. Frequently, however, there was a cross-piece attached either at the top to give the shape of a T (crux commissa) or just below the top, as in the form most familiar in Christian symbolism (crux immissa).[14] Other forms were in the shape of the letters X and Y.

The earliest writings that speak specifically of the shape of the cross on which Jesus died describe it as shaped like the letter T (the Greek letter tau),[15] or composed of an upright and a transverse beam, together with a small ledge in the upright.[16]

[edit] Nail placement in crucifixion

In popular depictions of the crucifixion of Jesus (possibly because in translations of John 20:25 the wounds are described as being “in his hands”), Jesus is shown with nails in his hands. But in Greek the word “χείρ”, usually translated as “hand”, referred to arm and hand together, and to denote the hand as distinct from the arm some other word was added, as “ἄκρην οὔτασε χεῖρα” (he wounded the end of the χείρ, i.e. he wounded her hand).[17]

A possibility that does not require tying is that the nails were inserted just above the wrist, between the two bones of the forearm (the radius and the ulna).[18]

An experiment that was the subject of a documentary on the National Geographic Channel’s Quest For Truth: The Crucifixion,[19] showed that a person can be suspended by the palm of their hand. Nailing the feet to the side of the cross relieves strain on the wrists by placing most of the weight on the lower body.

A foot-rest (suppedaneum) attached to the cross, perhaps for the purpose of taking the person’s weight off the wrists, is sometimes included in representations of the crucifixion of Jesus, but is not discussed in ancient sources. Some scholars interpret the Alexamenos graffito, the earliest surviving depiction of the Crucifixion, as including such a foot-rest.[20] Ancient sources do mention the sedile, a small seat attached to the front of the cross, about halfway down,[21][22][23] which could have served a similar purpose.

In 1968, archaeologists discovered at Giv’at ha-Mivtar in northeast Jerusalem the remains of one Jehohanan, who had been crucified in the first century. The remains included a heel bone with a nail driven through it from the side. The tip of the nail was bent, perhaps because of striking a knot in the upright beam, which prevented it being extracted from the foot. A first inaccurate account of the length of the nail led some to believe that it had been driven through both heels, suggesting that the man had been placed in a sort of sidesaddle position, but the true length of the nail, 11.5 centimetres, suggests instead that in this case of crucifixion the heels were nailed to opposite sides of the upright.[24][25][26]

[edit] Cause of death

The length of time required to reach death could range from a matter of hours to a number of days, depending on exact methods, the prior health of the condemned, and environmental circumstances. Death could result from any combination of causes, including blood loss, hypovolemic shock, or sepsis following infection, caused by the scourging that preceded the crucifixion, or by the process of being nailed itself, or eventual dehydration.[27][28]

A theory attributed to Pierre Barbet holds that, when the whole body weight was supported by the stretched arms, the typical cause of death was asphyxiation. He conjectured that the condemned would have severe difficulty inhaling, due to hyper-expansion of the chest muscles and lungs. The condemned would therefore have to draw himself up by his arms, leading to exhaustion, or have his feet supported by tying or by a wood block. Indeed, Roman executioners could be asked to break the condemned’s legs, after he had hung for some time, in order to hasten his death.[29] Once deprived of support and unable to lift himself, the condemned would die within a few minutes. Experiments by Frederick Zugibe have, however, revealed that, when suspended with arms at 60° to 70° from the vertical, test subjects had no difficulty breathing, only rapidly-increasing discomfort and pain. This would correspond to the Roman use of crucifixion as a prolonged, agonizing, humiliating death. Legs were often broken to hasten death through severe traumatic shock and fat embolism. Crucifixion on a single pole with no transom, with hands affixed over one’s head, would precipitate rapid asphyxiation if no block was provided to stand on, or once the legs were broken.[30]

Archaeological evidence for ancient crucifixion

Despite the fact that the ancient Jewish historian Josephus, as well as other sources, refer to the crucifixion of thousands of people by the Romans, there is only a single archaeological discovery of a crucified body dating back to the Roman Empire around the time of Jesus which was discovered in Jerusalem in 1968. It is not necessarily surprising that there is only one such discovery, because a crucified body was usually left to decay on the cross and therefore would not be preserved. The only reason these archaeological remains were preserved was because family members gave this particular individual a customary burial.

The remains were found accidentally in an ossuary with the crucified man’s name on it, ‘Yehohanan, the son of Hagakol’.[32][33] Prof. Nicu Haas, an anthropologist at the Hebrew University Medical School in Jerusalem, examined the ossuary and discovered that it contained a heel bone with a nail driven through its side, indicating that the man had been crucified. The position of the nail relative to the bone indicates that the feet have been nailed to the cross from their side, not from their front; various opinions have been proposed as to whether they were both nailed together to the front of the cross or one on the left side, one on the right side. The point of the nail had olive wood fragments on it indicating that he was crucified on a cross made of olive wood or on an olive tree. Since olive trees are not very tall, this would suggest that the condemned was crucified at eye level. Additionally, a piece of acacia wood was located between the bones and the head of the nail, presumably to keep the condemned from freeing his foot by sliding it over the nail. His legs were found broken, perhaps as a means of hastening his death as described in John 19:31-35.[30] It is thought that, since in Roman times iron was expensive, the nails were removed from the dead body to cut the costs, which would help to explain why only one has been found, as the tip of the nail in question was bent in such a way that it couldn’t be removed.

Prof. Haas had also identified a scratch on the inner surface of the right radius bone of the forearm, close to the wrist. He deduced from the form of the scratch, as well as from the intact wrist bones, that a nail had been driven into the forearm at that position.

In short the description of Jesus’s crucifixion matches the description given by historians and archaeologists.

Arguments against the Quran:

Lack of evidence to support the divinity.

If God sent the Quran to Muhammed, then why is it so incoherent, ambigous, vague, and not organized chronologically?

If the god of the Quran is almighty and powerful, why would he allow the Jews and Christians to corrupt his scriptures?

If Muhammed was visited by the angel Gabriel why did he think he was demonically possessed? The visitation of an angel is suppose to be a pleasant experience and in the Quran Muhammed is worried that this visitation means he was possessed by a demon.

Discrepancy on Jesus’s parentage in the Quran

The Quran states that God has no son and Jesus is not his son, he is only a prophet. But Surah’s 19:17-23 says Jesus was conceived through God. The problem with this is if Jesus was not conceived by a human male then who is his father. The Quran states that Jesus was conceived through God and therefore that would make God his father and Jesus the son of God. Also in Surah 19:17-18 it states that Gabriel appeared to Mary in a form of a man and Mary was afraid of him because she said I seek refuge from you to (Allah) most gracious: ( come not near ) if you fear Allah. Once again the visitation of an angel is suppose to be a pleasant experience and here Mary is afraid of Gabriel.
Historical fallacies and inaccuracies found in the Quran:

The Pharaoh

According to Surah 7:120-125, the pharaoh used crucifixion with dealing the sorcerers. The problem is there is no evidence that crucifixion was used before the Babylonian Empire.

The Golden Calf

According to Surah 20:90-100 a Samaritan helped the Israelites build the Golden Calf. The problem is the samaritans are the descendents of Jews intermarrying with Gentiles and they did not exist until 1,000 years after the time of Moses.

Judaism

According to Surah 9:30 the Jews believed that Ezra is the son of God-the Messiah. The Jews do not believe Ezra is the son of God and this assertion is blasphemous in Judaism.

Mary

According to Surahs 19:28 and 3:33-36 Mary the mother of Jesus, was the daughter of Imran or Amran, the father of Moses and Aaron. These verses also say Mary was the sister of Moses and Aaron. Clearly Muhammed confused Mary with Miriam.

There is also the story of Mary and the date palm speaking and offering fruit to her ( Surah 19:23

This legend is traced to similar legends found in the apocryphal “Protoevangelium of James” and “the Gospel of the Nativity of Mary” which have been dated to the fourth to sixth centuries, and was believed by the sects found in Arabia.

Now it is your turn londonspirit

PS: londonspirit I know I posted a lot here as I don’t have any experience in an online debate. Take your time
19.
Demsci
July 24, 2009 • 10:03 pm

This excellent article begins with explaining there is a threat and therefore a need to defend our civilization, especially in Western Europe, due to demographic changes.

If Scientology were growing rapidly, while it would have an authoritarian style of government, organizing society, treating women and minorities, while Islam would be a 3rd-rate religion, then Scientology and not Islam, would be scrutinized, criticized, even insultingly so.

But Muslims do not seem sensitive to this feeling of threat by Westerners or Indians. They primarily see unbearable insults, injustice to their Quran/ Prophet it seems, and react to that. They seem to react far more to Islam-critics than they try to reassure the Westerners. They react to accusations of past and present bad behavior of Muslims with the equivalent bad behavior of other humans, and not with distancing themselves radically, unequivocally from the radicals, siding with us.

When a connection between bad behavior of Muslims is made with Islamic Holy scriptures, teachings, they chastize the critic who says this and they say terrorist, oppressive, bad behavior in general is un-Islamic. But they mostly do not follow through by siding with the critics against the culprits. This gives us the suspicion they have some sort of secret agenda, that they really do side with radical Muslims, but merely want to lull as many Westerners and Indians into a sense of false security.

LondonSpirit, democratic people never object to voluntary conversion, so also not to Christians becoming Muslims, we respect that. But we do see a threat in bigger growth-numbers, when:
A. Radical Muslims propagate world domination, with as a result: many subservient: Women, minorities, even Islamic ordinary people, who have much less autonomy than in current Western countries.
B. When Muslims, radical or not, behave the way they do when they do have the majority and power, as they do in Islamic countries. We desperately like more Muslims, when in majority and power, to behave impeccably democratic.

I wished with all my heart that Muslims like you try to reassure the Westerners and Indians that are aware of growing threat to their civilization, to the autonomy (instead of subservience) of all their citizens, especially their women. Muslims could do that by unequivocally siding with democracy worldwide. Especially in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan. Then it would be us all against, say, North Korea, Burma or big organized crime groups.

When they would be doing that, in an honest way, a load would fall off of our shoulders. Converts to a 100 % democratic Islam would not bother us. But you don’t reassure us when we see a threat to our sacred freedom of speech, autonomy, political system, when you point out how powerful Islam is going to be and not at the same time invest in supporting democracy worldwide and siding with its other supportes.

And that is why for now we rejoice in the rise of the number of EX-Muslims, and in scrutinizing and criticizing Islam and Muslims, always and everywhere, so that being well informed is our weapon to defend our civilization. Thank God for the ex-Muslims, because they are for our democracy, human rights, golden rule (which is much more important to me than being against Islam, which I view as big potential obstacle to my democratic ideal). And they are: Well informed about Islam, and as highly or even higher motivated than most Muslims are.
20.
Raisinhead
July 25, 2009 • 4:00 am

Paarsurrey, Arab Christians sent a message for help from Pope Urab and then the Crusades happened. Muslims had attacked the Arab christians.

The Golden Calf was made by the Foreign slaves from Egypt who followed the Jews out of Egypt.

Adolph Hitler loved Islam as Islam is from the Occult. The SSS loved the occult and the pagan gods of Germany. Hitler, The Occult of Hyprocrisy, is a good film. Hitler was the Prophet and Messiah to the NAZIs.

Under Infidels Muslims can be ex-muslims and black slaves from Muslim lands like Sudan escape and are telling us about the evil things Arab Muslims do to African Muslims and Christians/Animist. After using the African Muslims they are now killing them and laughing at them calling them gorrillas. Wow Muhammad and allah called them bad names too and allah is their god and Muhammad is their prophet.
21.
ibrahim
July 25, 2009 • 8:05 am

Londonspirit, you are very right in saying that the Sharia law is wonderful and it should be applied to all lands, including the lands where the kafirs are the dominant majority. It is only after these fools are made to suffer by the hands of muslims will they understand the truth of “Religion of Peace”
22.
R_not
July 25, 2009 • 9:10 am

londonspirit, have you even read the koran? I mean the degradation of unbelievers is all over the place and if there is something that resembles a peaceful passage – it was abrogated.

I guess calling them apes and pigs to dehumanize them, or saying to slay them wherever you find them, doesn’t count as degradation. Or telling us continually that ‘islam doesn’t say to kill innocents’ when in fact the word ‘innocent’ doesn’t apply to non-muslims. Or that taqiyya is a part of your posts while leaving out that islam divides up the realm of war (dar al harb) and dar al islam, and that in dar al harb muslims are in a constant state of war. Or even admitting that mohammed did all the atrocities that the koran, and other texts, bolding tell us – is beyond most muslims – unless they are *FORMER* muslims.

How can people have a debate with muslims when they are not telling us the full scope of what islam is all about and they either leave things out or just boldly tell us something that is wrong? That sort of a debate isn’t a debate, but a session in futility.
23.
Marie
July 25, 2009 • 7:54 pm

Raisin Head:

The Golden Calf was made by the Foreign slaves from Egypt who followed the Jews out of Egypt.

I say:

According to Surah 20:90-100 a Samaritan helped the Israelites build the Golden Calf. The problem is the samaritans are the descendents of Jews intermarrying with Gentiles and they did not exist until 1,000 years after the time of Moses.
24.
Moooo
July 25, 2009 • 8:41 pm

“Sharia is a law, to bring about a good way of life. it does not indudge in any way of killing inncent people. Just like britain and other countries impose laws likewise saudia arabia imposes the shariah law. There is absolutely nothing wrong with imposing shariah law. Yes it may have some punishments that may be barbaric or inhumane in the modern day, such as cutting hands of for theft and lashing for comitting fornication. But it is your fault if you get these punishments and the way to avoid it is simple to not do it.”

This is the perfect example about a person that knows nothing about reality, this kind of person only knows theory. sharia law is full of holes and anyone can make advantages over others, especially woman.
25.
R_not
July 25, 2009 • 9:24 pm

“But it is your fault if you get these punishments and the way to avoid it is simple to not do it.”

Considering that the idea of a judicial system in these barbaric lands where sharia laws are implemented is what is coming right behind sharia laws – I would say that the pure ignorance of such a statement as this is astonishing.

It is the same with ‘honor killings’, or doing anything to non-muslims, sharia laws allow an individual muslim to get their ‘eye for an eye’ without having any consequences for their poor behavior.

And they keep telling us that this is not islam. hogwash. Sharia laws are based on islamic texts – this is a bias to one religion as I have ever seen it. (and I don’t believe islam is a religion but just a set of rites that are made to appear as a religion)
26.
londonspirit
July 25, 2009 • 10:19 pm

JONC firstly to you. Your talking about conversion rates to muslims in the UK, i am living in the uk and i see in my mosque alone many converting to islam. The conversion rate in UK is very high and islam is the fastest growing religion through converts not just in uk but throughout europe and one dominant country is USA, where islam is growing abnormally since 9/11.

JONC WROTE: The Musselima less so. The non-muslim, not at all.

ANSWER: Jonc i suggest you read surah al nisa. The chapter dedicated to woman and their rights. And lets see if the quran says muslim woman have no rights. Your basing your judgement on the spread of word and nothing else. Muslim woman have the most rights in comparison to any other religion. Its just your illeterate way of thinking that makes you bring about this judgement.

Example: When a muslim woman wears a hijab you say she is forced to wear it. But when a christian gal wears a headscarf you say she is modest. You say that muslim woman dont like wearing nikab but eyt when the french president wanted to ban the nikab and hijab it was the woman who were protesting, NOT THE MEN.

As for the non-muslim, find a single verse in the quran where it says we should treat non-muslims unfairly. Muslims and chrisitans in the older days used to share the same building as a church and as a mosque. The lived peacefully. You quote a single verse

Try Sura 9:29.:
“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of Islam among the People of the Book, until they pay the until they pay the tribute …”

But like every other person here you quote completely out of context. When are you people going to learn to quote in context. Its getting really pathetic and boring now. Surah 9-28-29 is talking about a war. There are many answers in google and I have wrote an answer on this countless number of times. If i could access older posts i would just copy and paste my previous answers but since i cant i really cant be bothered to explain this verses again. Jonc this verses has been answered many times, and is in the context of war and what happened during the war.
27.
londonspirit
July 25, 2009 • 10:29 pm

MARIE you havent proved nothing on the authenticity of the Bible. Your just talking about tablets being found. I aint denying that the bible is not word from god. Because as muslims we are specifically taught that jesus was given a scripture. What i deny is the modern bible and what you believe.

1. JESUS BEING THE SON OF GOD.
There is not a single verse in the bible whereby jesus he himself said that he is the son of god and that we should worship him.

2. Trinity
There is not a single verse in the bible whereby jesus himself says the word trinity.

3. Crucification
You wrote about people being on the cross for too long suffered pain and so on. But do you know the virtues that the people who put jesus on the cross had. Jesus was put on the cross on a friday. And in those days it was superstitious to kill someone after sunset on a friday. So these people took jesus down of the cross only after a couple of hours after he was put up. Therefore he was still alive as he was put on the tomb.

And one thing jesus said when the people asked for miracles was as jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of a whale, so shall the SON OF MAN be 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the earth.

1. First thing to note here is jonah was always alive in the whale. that was the miracle. So if jesus was dead in the belly of the whale, than jesus was lying and he didnt fulfill his prophecy.

When i have more time marie, i will go into the corruption of the moden bible, as you have made no attempt to say it is authentic. Why dont you do this. Look at king james bible version and look at another bible from another author and just check if it is the same.

ICAN TELL YOU RIGHT NOW IT WONT BE. So if two bibles are not the same of different authors how can you claim the modern bible to be authentic. And if the modern bible talks about angels mating with earthlings and creating big giants, and that unicorns exist in this world and many more how can you call this authentic.
28.
Marie
July 25, 2009 • 11:39 pm

londonspirit:

MARIE you havent proved nothing on the authenticity of the Bible. Your just talking about tablets being found. I aint denying that the bible is not word from god. Because as muslims we are specifically taught that jesus was given a scripture. What i deny is the modern bible and what you believe.

I say:

Those tablets support the fact that certain people in the Bible did exist and that certain events did take place, which means they do support the modern Bible.

londonspirit:

2. Trinity
There is not a single verse in the bible whereby jesus himself says the word trinity.

I say:

That’s because Jesus spoke in parables to get his message across.

londonspirit:

3. Crucification
You wrote about people being on the cross for too long suffered pain and so on. But do you know the virtues that the people who put jesus on the cross had. Jesus was put on the cross on a friday. And in those days it was superstitious to kill someone after sunset on a friday. So these people took jesus down of the cross only after a couple of hours after he was put up. Therefore he was still alive as he was put on the tomb.

I say:

Before Jesus was hung on the cross he was tortured by romans who used a whip with a type glass that caused massive wounds to his back ( possibly exposing his spine ). These wounds would have caused significant blood loss to his body which may have put more pressure on his heart to pump blood. Jesus did not get any sleep the night before he was tortured so his body was already exhausted when he was tortured. While on his way to be hung on the cross the romans made Jesus carry the cross he was to be hung on which put weight on his already broken body and at some point during the procession he fell and might have punctured his heart preventing blood flow and causing a pouch of blood to develop, which might have burst sometime while he was hanging on the cross ( an anuerysm of the heart ). The romans nailed Jesus to the cross by his hands and feet which would have caused more blood loss. There is also speculation that crucifixion in such a position might have put weight on the chest causing asphyxiation. In either way there is no way Jesus would have survived the cross because of all the massive blood loss and injuries on his body.

londonspirit:

And one thing jesus said when the people asked for miracles was as jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of a whale, so shall the SON OF MAN be 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the earth.

1. First thing to note here is jonah was always alive in the whale. that was the miracle. So if jesus was dead in the belly of the whale, than jesus was lying and he didnt fulfill his prophecy.

I say:

This prophesy is a metaphor describing Jesus was going to hell for three days.

londonspirit:

When i have more time marie, i will go into the corruption of the moden bible, as you have made no attempt to say it is authentic. Why dont you do this. Look at king james bible version and look at another bible from another author and just check if it is the same.

I say:

londonspirit we are moving on until you respond to my accusations about the Quran. IF YOU DON’T RESPOND TO MY ACCUSATIONS THEN I AM GOING TO END THE DEBATE. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
29.
Marie
July 25, 2009 • 11:41 pm

As I stated before Jesus did not literally state he was the son of God, he spoke in parables.
30.
rickishi
July 26, 2009 • 2:25 am

While on one side people like Londonspirit indulge in word games filled with half truths , lies and one sided opinions, the rest of the followers of “religion of peace” gleefully carry on with full fervour the Islamic jihad of violence and killing, suppressing people of other religion and hatred.

After all the havoc created , a small people like LondonSpirit come out professing that Islam is a religon of peace with beautifully constructed words and misleading thoughts making the world buy it

Forget all the word games, just tell us why the whole world is vary of muslims ? ask any non-muslim community living beside muslims in large numbers any where in the world and they all overwhelmingly have a bad opinion about muslims , why ?

you dont fear if a group of people come out from a temple or a church , but everyone will have a test of his wits everytime a group comes out of a mosque , why ? coz they are more likely to create mayhem and violence every friday afternoon

have you seen the site http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ ? I dont think any other religon people carry out so much violence in name of religion as updated there , worse is the number just keeps increasing
31.
R_not
July 26, 2009 • 4:57 am

londonspirit, you are doing just what we expect of a muslim to do – deflect onto a different subject and the favorite subject is to start discussing the Bible while we can tell you haven’t read any of it – just some cleric’s interpretation of it which is also questionable as to whether they read it or not.

We at least give you the courtesy of reading your islamic texts and can discuss them, while we do not get that same courtesy back from muslims. Whether muslims get upset that we read it or not, we at least have read it more extensively than most muslims! And if the clerics, or you, did read the Bible you would also know that:
John 8
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to think that he would see my Day; he saw it and was glad.
57 The Jews then said, ‘You are not fifty yet, and you have seen Abraham!’
58 Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, before Abraham ever was, I AM.

St John said ‘He was the Word and the Word was made FLESH.’

There is more than 1 person who wrote about the life of Jesus and His teachings vs mohammed who came around later, met a questionable angel and changed the message of the Bible, and also the message of the koran which nullified all his efforts at making islam a religion. In fact, the one who was known as the ‘Prince of Lies’ was Lucifer – also known as Satan – of which allah was known as the greatest of deceivers.

“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” (Isaiah 9:6)

And that is just the tip of the iceberg. Jesus is the Light of the world. And He is your only Savior, so if I were you I wouldn’t slander Him. Instead, open your heart and your mind and ask God to reveal Himself to you – and persevere in your search for the Truth. (Have you read Isaiah 53?)’

Your koran tells you to read the Bible too which might be hard to do when the muslims keep burning the Bibles, or ban them. tsk tsk – afraid of something? Anyway, here is from your own text: surah 10:94 Basically, it is telling the muslims to read the Bible – the ‘books before them’. He even says that it is ‘truth from our Lord’. There are a few other surahs that tell muslims to do the same. So, if the Bible is considered the Truth even from the koran, then it nullifies the koran since the koran has a completely different message.

Also 10:37
32.
IslamTheTrueReligion
July 26, 2009 • 5:56 am

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Islam is a religion that God commanded humanity to follow as God Almighty “Allah” (s.w.t) said in Holy Qur’an Al Ma’idah 5:3:

“…This day I have Perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.

In Surah Aal-I-Imran 3:85, God Almighty “Allah” (s.w.t.) also says:

“If anyone desires a religion other than Islam never will it be accepted of Him and in the hereafter is one of the losers”.

The name of religion “Christianity”, “Judaism”, “Buddhism”, “Hinduism”, “Zoroastrianism”, and other sects and religions are not mentioned in their holy books (i.e. from very first page to last page of Bible whether in New Testament or Old Testament, and other holy book respectively) that God said mankind has to follow their religion respectively because these religions are made by men. They are not made by God. This is the reason that such religions are named after names of men who supposedly teach or reform the people. For example, Christianity is named after Jesus Christ(a.s.), Judaism after the clan Judah, Buddhism after the reformer Buddha, Hinduism after the tribe Hindus, Zoroastrianism after Zoroaster, etc… Finally, the most important reason of all, is that all these religions in one way or another, WORSHIP A CREATION, which contradicts the Purpose of Creation.

If all the above mentioned religions don’t have evidence themselves that their religion is to be followed, so, how much more Darwin’s Theory of Evolution? All parts of human body and fossils discovered as evidence of the theory did not evolve but remain the same for billions and billions of years until today – - an evidence that they are created.

God Almighty “Allah” (s.w.t.) says so many times in the Qur’an how Allah (s.w.t.) Created All Creations as Signs for people to reflect. Allah (s.w.t.) chose the name Islam as a religion for humanity because of its meaning “Submission to the will and commands of Allah (s.w.t.)” . Obviously, ALL Creations including all parts of your body (i.e. heart beats, blood flows, etc…) function under the Will and Command of Allah (s.w.t.).

Think how all parts of your body, inside and outside, are systematically and intricately shaped, formed and organized, each part serves a purpose – - your heart beats, your blood flows, even the tiniest part that you don’t know exists. That is how God Almighty “Allah” (s.w.t.) puts or “commands” them to do. All parts of your body are true muslims than what you think – - not Christians, atheists or whatever religion you follow – - since they just function under the commands of Allah (s.w.t.).
33.
R_not
July 26, 2009 • 6:36 am

Well, that is cute – since many don’t believe that allah is anything other than either mohammed, or his pagan moon god altered to fit mohammed’s needs, or a part of each – you can write the longest note on earth, quote all the surahs you want, and it is still hogwash.

God gave us a free will for a reason – not to follow anything that claims to be a god. He stated several times not to worship the sun, the moon, or any of the other things in the heavens (stars).

- The Old Testament constantly rebuked the worship of the Moon-god
– Deut. 4:19 And when you look up to the heavens and behold the sun or the moon or any star among the heavenly hosts, do not be led astray into adoring them and serving hem. These the Lord, your God has let fall to the lot of all other nations under the heavens.
– Deut. 17:3 …by serving other gods, or by worshiping the sun or the moon or any of he host of the sky, against my command.
– II Kngs. 21:3,5; II Kngs. 23:5; Jer. 8:2; 19:13; Zeph. 1:5

And we are warned of false prophets and gods, such as mohammed and allah, quite often too. And your god and mohammed ignored the 10 commandments, which were directly from God. Instead mohammed made up his own definitions of sin which has led islam to be the scourge of the earth for so many.

Your messenger of allah gets away with committing murder for greed, adultery, child-molesting, incest, lying, and incorporates pagan beliefs into your ‘religion, it most certainly wasn’t dispatched by the True God of Israel.
The True God isn’t interested or impressed with your rituals. The best you can offer Him is describd as ‘dirty rags’, a ’stench in His nostrils’.

Jesus said there would be ‘false prophets after him’
Matthew 7 15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 24 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many.

Matthew 24
24 For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect.

(wow – to ‘deceive’ – that is the whole basis of islam – to deceive!)
34.
ibnsahr
July 26, 2009 • 9:47 am

LS

***i suggest you read surah al nisa. The chapter dedicated to woman and their rights…….Muslim woman have the most rights in comparison to any other religion***

surah al nisaa, is surah allah the pimp, allah aka satan allowed us to marry captives and slaves where is the right of woman to have undivided love from their husband, and its only about 40 verses talking about women out of 176, the rest just haterd satanic verses, so much dedicated to women, SHAME ON YOU MUSLIM, the satan put women as sex object, thats what happend if you dont have money to pay ‘mahr’ to enjoy sex, you become suicide bomber with the promise of women which never have period for four weeks of sex, hope its not blow up dolls

surah 9:29 “Fight those who believe not in Allah” if you said its in contex of war, there are people whos not belive in allah 1400 years ago and there are still approx. 80% normal being whos not believe in allah now, are we still in the war now?, either two, quran out of date or you being hypocrite

what do you mean out of contex? the whole quran is just juggling mumbo jumbo, all mixed up, good example with stupid satan supposed to dedicated the satanic verses for women but mix it up with haterd dedicated verses, now that is what you call putting something in the wrong contex
35.
IslamTheTrueReligion
July 26, 2009 • 2:28 pm

To R_not and all Christians,

Wow, you have such great knowledge of your holy book, the Bible.

Anyway, can I ask all of you who worship Jesus Christ (a.s.), son of Mary, your prophet who told you that Jesus Christ, son of Mary, said “I am the son of God and worship me for I am the Way, the truth and the life?

Remember, the Bible is two parts – - the Old Testament and the New Testament. As a Christian, you don’t follow the Old Testament. The OLd Testament mentions many prophets and One God. The New Testament are Gospels of Luke, Matthew, John, Mark and Acts.

As a Christian, you follow the Gospels (all in the New Testament), not the Old Testament. Who are the prophets in the Gospels who said to Worship Jesus, son of Mary?

Dont mention gospels according to Mark, Luke, Matthew and John because these are NOT WORD OF GOD. They are equivalent to Hadith – - a compilation of the sayings of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) on how he did and said about different matters while he was alive. Some compilers of hadith are authentic and some are not. Authentic Hadith are to be accepted while unauthentic ones are rejected.

What is interesting is the Gospels according to Mark, Luke, Matthew and John don’t have chain of narrators, therefore, not authentic, and should be rejected. These people did not live with Jesus Christ at all. They were not disciples of Jesus Christ as well. They are not even eyewitnesses of Jesus Christ. Mark was written 60 to 75 A.C. He was the son of St. Barnabas’ sister. Mathew was a tax collector, a minor official who did not travel around Jesus. Luke’s Gospel was written much later, and is in fact drawn from the same source as Mark’s and Mathew’s. Luke was Paul’s physician and like Paul never met Jesus. John’s Gospel was written in about 100 A.C. He should not be confused with John, the Disciple who was another man.

I want a prophet of God who mention all your quotations:

Matthew 7 15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 24 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many.

Matthew 24
24 For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect.

Who are your prophets in the New Testament, not the Old Testament?
36.
IslamTheTrueReligion
July 26, 2009 • 2:43 pm

To R_Not,

You said “God gave us a free will for a reason – not to follow anything that claims to be a god. He stated several times not to worship the sun, the moon, or any of the other things in the heavens (stars).”

Who are you fooling, you are the one WORSHIPPING A SON OF GOD, a created being, who claims to be a god.

Allahu-Akbar, it’s coming from your own mouth?

LOL, muslims don’t worship any created being like you? Who created the son of God? The same Creator who created Jesus Christ (a.s.), son of Mary, before Jesus (a.s.) became son of God, the same Creator who created you, Ali Sina, and ALL Humanity that Ali Sina wanted to be saved from, is the God of Muslims, Non Muslims and the Universe.

Now go to your Bible and the New Testament and prove to me that Jesus Christ (a.s.), son of Mary, said “Worship Me. I am the son of God, Lord and Saviour!”
37.
R_not
July 26, 2009 • 3:57 pm

IslamTheTrueReligion, #1. we are discussing islam here and I already posted some proof. You chose not to accept it and keep arguing the same point.

Ironic that you believe in a God that can do all things but you think He cannot become Man. I believe God can do all things. But, if you read the koran it is no wonder that you think your god cannot do it all – it needs mohammed to help him out. mohammed had set himself right up there with your god to help him judge people, and to condemn them too.

Your allah was overly concerned with mohammed’s sex life! I suppose that took up so much of its time that it couldn’t take the time to make your ‘perfect religion’ itself – so a questionable angel was sent to mohammed. While in the Bible, we got the word from God Himself – both testaments.

The koran is nothing but mohammed’s rants. The Gospels are what several men directly witnessed. mohammed witnessed nothing. He could not get one of the Old, or New, TEstament stories straight so he had to tell everyone that the Bible was corrupted. But, muslims won’t read the Bible so they just blindly accept mohammed’s rants.

And how can you trust a deceiver with allah, and mohammed, being the greatest of deceivers!? We teach our children that basic principle because we tell them they will not be trusted if they lie – one concept your mohammed, or allah, didn’t grasp. One simple, childlike, principle your god couldn’t grasp – lying is a no no. And that simple principle means that all of islam is a joke, a sick joke, on all muslims. To put the aura of holiness on such an evil message, the opposite of what God gave to us in the Bible, is really sad.

Go and read the Bible this time unless you are afraid of the truth. (which is ironic since the koran tells you to read it for the truth! surah 10:94, Also 10:37 – read the Bible – the ‘books before them’. He even says that it is ‘truth from our Lord’.)
38.
londonspirit
July 26, 2009 • 4:28 pm

R-NOT you just contradicted yourself. lets look at your quote that you wrote to me

We at least give you the courtesy of reading your islamic texts and can discuss them, while we do not get that same courtesy back from muslims.

And than you wrote to islamthe true religion

Well, that is cute – since many don’t believe that allah is anything other than either mohammed, or his pagan moon god altered to fit mohammed’s needs, or a part of each – you can write the longest note on earth, quote all the surahs you want, and it is still hogwash.

Can you see the error of what your saying. And than you judge us for not reading the bible. What is the need of discussing islamic texts when even if we give you an explanation you think its HOGWASH. First open your mind and than come back to me for a discussion.
39.
Ant
July 26, 2009 • 4:39 pm

I am for tolerance and sharing of true writings about christianity, islam and judaism and not calling names.
sharing knowledge truthfully will eventually make people make right choices. Islam may be 7th century way of life of saudi arabia exported to the world with violence, conquering of other nations, raping of women and forceful conversion. It might be the biggest bundle of lies as well. It might be nothing but oppression of women. It might be whatever negative and wrong is in the world. BUT, by criticising and name-calling the people who come to this site or others, and contribute their view-point will make them go back to their shells, their safety zones, whether christian, islam, hinduism, bahais, buddhism or whatever.

First of all we shall have tolerance for others’ viewpoints, howsoever different from our way of life, our up-bringing, education level, cult-thinking, religious faith and cultural background. Once we have tolerance for others’ view-point and can talk without fear and favor, truth will come out and prevail.

I am not supporting Islam but requesting for level-headedness in our debates, contribution. We want all human beings to be equal, live in peace and leave this world for our children where they can interact and prosper. For that to become a reality we shall start a movement ” Freedom of Speech” in America and Europe. No restrictions on writings about (un)holy books full of contradictions and not worth the paper they are written on. We shall fight for “Freedom of Speech and Writing”. Once that is achieved, war will be won against all degrading taboos, cultures, cults which spread hatred, crime against humanity, be it idol-worshippers, demi-gods, dictatorial one-man(prophets/son of god) or …XXX.

We need love and not hatred even when criticizing hatred and violence. Sober mind and tolerance will win. History has shown time and again, truth prevails and good wins evil…..
40.
R_not
July 26, 2009 • 5:16 pm

I have read not only the koran, but much of the hadith and sira (more than I can say most muslims read) and I find the religious part of it hogwash. Ironic that muslims don’t accept the words of men who were with Jesus, but accept a book that was compiled decades later and much of it was written on edible things that the goats ate! And then Uthman compiled it and who knows what he did to mess the koran up since he destroyed whatever the goats left behind.

Yes, I find the koran a bunch of hogwash as far as religion, allah, and anything ‘holy’ in it. I do find it ‘holey’ though.

I find that allah was overly concerned with mohammed’s love life so much so that he sanctioned taking another man’s wife, and a child. I find that allah was overly concerned with mohammed getting a bunch of slaves and other loot – so he could do as he willed with them including doing what he willed to the children no matter how perverse. I find that allah was overly concerned with killing and torturing people, that he would create people just so as to watch them burn in hell, or be subjugated to a group of people who treated them with vile and contempt.

Most importantly, the allah of the koran couldn’t make up its mind – should I give a message of peace, or violence? It just couldn’t make up its mind to keep the same message of the Bible so it changed the Bible and then couldn’t even convey the stories of the Bible correctly via its ‘angel’. And then choses an illiterate who was able to lose (we don’t know how much) of the koran via hungry goats, and then lose the rest of it to a questionable man, Uthman, because he destroyed the original.

Then lastly, conveniently, allah and mohammed both admitted to being deceivers. Which should put it all into perspective to anyone who actually reads the koran with ‘an open mind’. Like muslims tell us to do (roll eyes). I read the koran not expecting anything much back in 2002 and that is when I started discovering where the violence in islam comes from, and why muslims tell us one thing while doing another. I found out that the closed minds are not the non-muslims, but the muslims who justify such atrocious behavior not only from mohammed, but from a god.
41.
R_not
July 26, 2009 • 5:55 pm

I should add that the ‘error’ you are telling me about is actually the conclusion that came about after I read much of your islamic texts. In the beginning, I could tell right off that allah was not the God of Israel. I figured that it must be mohammed’s god from his pagan religion. Then when I delved into that a bit, allah was not the blood thirsty, overly concerned with mohammed’s love life, deceiver that mohammed said it was. In fact, it began to conveniently sound more like mohammed making up things to excuse his poor behavior.

mohammed became more warped as islam progressed. He did not start out as a pediphile (that we know of), or a blood thirsty warlord that craved loot and slaves. He lived off of his rich wife for quite a long time, until he drained her of money. But, that is not a crime – maybe a disgusting display of a man, but still not a crime. It was after he thought up islam is when we find a mohammed that became the lustful, vengeful man and he created a god to suit his needs.

And if we even look further into islamic texts we find it wasn’t the Meccans who were nasty in Mecca – but mohammed. The Meccans even went to mohammed’s uncle to ask him to stop mohammed from behaving so poorly. But, it seems that everyone wants to keep up the myth that it was mohammed who was mistreated. I don’t.

These three texts say about the same thing Ishaq:119, Tabari VI:93, 95-96, I will post the first one:

[B]Ishaq:119 “‘Abu Tabib, your nephew Muhammad has cursed our gods [at this point he had cursed all of them, including Allah], insulted our religion [more correctly, insulted them by trying to steal their religion], mocked our way of life and accused our forefathers of error. Either you stop him or let us get to him. For you, like us, are in opposition to him. He gave them a conciliatory reply. They returned a second time and said, ‘We have asked you to put a stop to your nephew’s activities but you have not done so. By Allah, we cannot endure having our fathers reviled and our customs mocked.’ Muhammad thought that his uncle had the idea of abandoning and betraying him, and that he was going to lose his support. The Apostle broke into tears.”

This uncle who raised mohammed, cared for mohammed, made sure he ate and had clothes – was the same uncle that mohammed cursed on his deathbed.

This is the man you guys hold up as a prophet. And these are just two of the reasons why I find mohammed nothing but a wretched man who lost his way in life.
42.
londonspirit
July 26, 2009 • 6:00 pm

MARIE like i said i belive in the bible, if you cared to read that bit. As we are told to belive by your enemy muhammed. What i dont belive is the modern bible.

MARIE WROTE: IF YOU DON’T RESPOND TO MY ACCUSATIONS THEN I AM GOING TO END THE DEBATE. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

ANSWER: Before we start the devbate you want to end it. This is truly pathetic. I will respond to your accusations

1st accusation: If God sent the Quran to Muhammed, then why is it so incoherent, ambigous, vague, and not organized chronologically?

ANSWER: You say the quran is incoherent i.e not logical. I say it is very logical considering it teaches us to believe that there is one god, and that we should do good and refrain from evil.

It is not ambigious. What is ambigious is the arabic language as it is a very sensitive language. It is your illeterate thinking, whereby you take texts out of context which make it seem ambigious.

Again it is only vague if you take things out of context and interpret it to something that suits your needs. If i was to take specific verses from the bible to suit my needs, the bible will also be vague.

And finally you wrote not organized chrnoigically. Just because it is not organized in that manner does it assume now that it is not word of god. You look at the content not how it is presented. Presentation doesnt make it god’s word it is the content that does.

2nd Accusation

If the god of the Quran is almighty and powerful, why would he allow the Jews and Christians to corrupt his scriptures?

ANSWER: This is just a stupid meaningless accusation. I can say the same thing. If jesus was god why didnt he just make the jews follow him.

If this is god’s will that the other scriptures get corrupted than thats that. He has his own motives. If god wanted to make everyone a muslim he can. but we have been given our own free will. Now if there are some people who want to corrupt the scriptures than let it be.

Rather than think of this as an accusation you should see it as a miracle. For none of the other srciptures has god mention that these scriptures will be guarded from corruption apart from the quran. And it is only the quran that has been guarded unlike the rest which has been corrupted.

And even after serious attempts to corrupt the quran by many, one such gropu has recently published the FURQAN. yet people are just ignoring these selfless attempt.

3rd accusation

If Muhammed was visited by the angel Gabriel why did he think he was demonically possessed? The visitation of an angel is suppose to be a pleasant experience and in the Quran Muhammed is worried that this visitation means he was possessed by a demon.

ANSWER: Muhammed was a humble man, he felt possessed becuase it was un natural. he was terrified and scared. Any thing we humans experience out of the unexplained we all feel scared, whether it was an angel or not.

The question you should ask yourself. Is that if it was a demon or devil, why would this devil teach good to mankind. just use your logic, it is impossible for it to be a demon or devil becuase if you look at islam today, it is the only religion that makes it a law upon its people to give 2.5% of annual earnings to charity, only religion where it is obligatory to fast so that our heart softens to the poor, only religion which completely removes the concept of wealth, race and many things eles via the annual gathering of hajj. Surely a devil or demon wouldnt teach its followers to do that.

4th accusation

Historical fallacies and inaccuracies found in the Quran:

About pharoah

ANSWER: You basing your knowledge on present historical finds. Are you now trying to say to me that in the future no further historical findings will be made. Dont base inaccuracies just because it doesnt agree with modern times.
many quranic verses didnt agree with past times but agrees with modern times. another inaccurarcy that doesnt agree with modern times is that the quran says we came from one man and one female. But it will be proved right in the future.

i will get on with the rest of the accusations later.
43.
Marie
July 26, 2009 • 6:29 pm

londonspirit:

ANSWER: You say the quran is incoherent i.e not logical. I say it is very logical considering it teaches us to believe that there is one god, and that we should do good and refrain from evil.

I say:

Just because the Quran states there is one god and we should do good and refrain from evil does not mean it is divine. Every religion states one should do good and refrain from evil and any ordinary person can say there is one god and do good and refrain from evil.

londonspirit:

If the god of the Quran is almighty and powerful, why would he allow the Jews and Christians to corrupt his scriptures?

ANSWER: This is just a stupid meaningless accusation. I can say the same thing. If jesus was god why didnt he just make the jews follow him.

I say:

Answer the question.

Why would God allow the Jews and Christians to corrupt his holy word?

londonspirit:

If this is god’s will that the other scriptures get corrupted than thats that. He has his own motives. If god wanted to make everyone a muslim he can. but we have been given our own free will. Now if there are some people who want to corrupt the scriptures than let it be.

I say:

Then according to your logic he purposely lead the Jews and Christians away from him. Why would God purposely lead his followers astray away from him.

londonspirit:

Rather than think of this as an accusation you should see it as a miracle. For none of the other srciptures has god mention that these scriptures will be guarded from corruption apart from the quran. And it is only the quran that has been guarded unlike the rest which has been corrupted.

No it is not miracle. It just shows that God does not love his creation.

londonspirit:

ANSWER: Muhammed was a humble man, he felt possessed becuase it was un natural. he was terrified and scared. Any thing we humans experience out of the unexplained we all feel scared, whether it was an angel or not.

I say:

londonspirit I know many people who had encounters with angels including me and none of us did not think we were possessed, nor terrified, nor scared.

londonspirit:

The question you should ask yourself. Is that if it was a demon or devil, why would this devil teach good to mankind. just use your logic, it is impossible for it to be a demon or devil becuase if you look at islam today, it is the only religion that makes it a law upon its people to give 2.5% of annual earnings to charity, only religion where it is obligatory to fast so that our heart softens to the poor, only religion which completely removes the concept of wealth, race and many things eles via the annual gathering of hajj. Surely a devil or demon wouldnt teach its followers to do that.

I say:

londonspirit I know people who are demonologists, work in the paranormal field, and have seen demons ( including me ), even the devil can teach good things in order to fool people and lead them away from God.

Also just because the Quran teaches good things does not make it divine. Any ordinary person can teach good things.

londonspirit:

ANSWER: You basing your knowledge on present historical finds. Are you now trying to say to me that in the future no further historical findings will be made. Dont base inaccuracies just because it doesnt agree with modern times.
many quranic verses didnt agree with past times but agrees with modern times. another inaccurarcy that doesnt agree with modern times is that the quran says we came from one man and one female. But it will be proved right in the future.

I say

londonspirit Egyptians did not practice crucifixion, only the Persians, Seleucids, Carthaginians, and Romans take part in this practice.
44.
R_not
July 26, 2009 • 6:38 pm

‘ANSWER: You say the quran is incoherent i.e not logical. I say it is very logical considering it teaches us to believe that there is one god, and that we should do good and refrain from evil. ‘

Ok, tell the truth about what good and evil is in islam. And make sure to include the definitions of the words you use, such as ‘innocent’, ‘human beings’, ’sin’, etc. These words do not have the same meanings in islam and therefore you know, as well as I do, that you are being disingenuous about the whole thing.

‘ANSWER: This is just a stupid meaningless accusation. I can say the same thing. If jesus was god why didnt he just make the jews follow him.’

There is this thing called ‘free will’. And if one choses not to follow Him then so be it. Just as you chose to follow a false prophet. Keep in mind that you are also given the opportunity to the Truth and if you chose to ignore it – then it is your decision.

2 Cor 11
12 I will go on acting as I do at present, to cut the ground from under the feet of those who are looking for a chance to be proved my equals in grounds for boasting.
13 These people are counterfeit apostles, dishonest workers disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
14 There is nothing astonishing in this; even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. <++++++ take note of this passage that talks about mohammed's 'Gabriel'.

2 Peter
1 As there were false prophets in the past history of our people, so you too will have your false teachers, who will insinuate their own disruptive views and, by disowning the Lord who bought them freedom, will bring upon themselves speedy destruction.
2 Many will copy their debauched behaviour, and the Way of Truth will be brought into disrepute on their account.
3 In their greed they will try to make a profit out of you with untrue tales. But the judgement made upon them long ago is not idle, and the destruction awaiting them is for ever on the watch.

This goes into the 3rd part of your note too – that 'angel' that mohammed saw scared mohammed. The Angel Gabriel came to Mary, who was a child in comparison to mohammed, and I am sure she was scared. But, that angel put Mary at ease even while telling her she was going to bear a child in a time and era that women were stoned to death for doing such a thing out of wedlock. That angel was not the same angel that an old man who had nothing to lose, saw.

As for the historical inaccuracies – I have never heard a more weird explanation for it – in that 'word of your god' who couldn't get its facts straight. (roll eyes)
45.
Marie
July 26, 2009 • 6:39 pm

Correction, took part in this practice.
46.
surj
July 26, 2009 • 9:53 pm

To,londonspirit, You say, “Please find me information in Islam from Quran where it says, that non-muslims should be degraded. I am very curious to know this verse. What the Taliban do is not Islam or Sharia Law. It is stupid and done due to their own understanding and beliefs.” I think Taliban are more Muslims than you are, because they follow the Islam to the letter. From Muslim Quran Sura 9:29,” Fight those who believe NOT in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are)the People of the Book, until they pay the JIZYA( special tax on non believers)with willing submission and feel themselves subdued ” Why is it that you Muslims always jump up in the defence of Islam ,even knowing that Islam is evil to its core.? But then again I can understand it, because Mo-Ham-Mad( may piss be upon him)asked you muslims to defend Islam at any cost , even with your life. That is why you have suicide bomber. Sura 48:13″ And if any believe NOT in Allah and his Messenger ,we have prepared for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire” Please tell me what wrong have I done to your Allah or his messenger, that he had prepared Blazing Fire for me? From the Book ” Facts are Facts, The Untold Story Of India’s Partition” By Wali Khan, in it he says , ” Muslims have always been denied access to truth and historical evidence.Luckily, however, history has a way of revealing itself sooner or later, no matter how much effort is made to camouflage it with pretty untruth. ” So you see you Muslims will never accept the truth even it hits you straight in the face. That is so unfortunate of Muslims. In think those who are trying to convince the muslims of their wrong doing and EVILS of Islam will go blue in the face and Muslims will still not be convinced. Prime examples are on these threads.
47.
surj
July 26, 2009 • 10:06 pm

parrsurry, ” I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim.” First of all you can’t be a Muslims according to Pakistani constitution which they amended it so as to bar Ahmahia to call themselves Muslims. You are NOT allowed to practice Islam in Pakistan, you would be arrested. Where is in India you have full right as any Indian to practice your religion , The only peaceful Muslim is a dead Muslim. Why don’t we see you Ahmadi Muslims on the streets demonstrating against EVILS of Islam?
48.
IslamTheTrueReligion
July 27, 2009 • 12:49 am

To R_Not & All Christians here,

I know what I am talking about because I was devoted Catholic Christian before I accepted Islam. You are referring quotes from the Gospel according to Matthews about false prophets, etc… and you are referring to prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.)This is the reason I asked you who is the prophet of Christianity who said that Jesus Christ (a.s.), son of Mary, said: “Worship Me. I am the Son of God, Lord and Saviour?

I know all of you cannot provide that because the New Testament doesn’t have prophets who said that. I have already done the brainwashing of Christinaity for 30 years of my life, reading the Bible every night and every sunday.

Have all of you ever wondered why the New Testament has Acts and Paul’s Letters? What are the role of Paul’s Letters? What is Acts, Romans, etc… for? These should give you an idea of who preach and teach Christianity.

Paul as a Messenger of Christianity that Jesus Christ did not teach and preach is in (First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians) or 1 Corinthians 9:1-2 that states:

Am I not a free man? Am I not an apostle? Haven’t I seen Jesus our Lord? And aren’t you the result of my work for the Lord? Even if others do not accept me as an apostle, surely you do! Because of your life in union with the Lord you yourselves are proof of the fact that I am an apostle.

Paul was not a prophet and messenger of God. He was also not a disciple of Jesus Christ (a.s), son of Mary. He was a jew and inhabitant of Tarsus. He had spent a long time in Rome and was a Roman citizen. As Cardinal Danielou (the author of “A New Representation of the Origins of Christianity: Judeo Christianity) says that Paul had an access among the Jews who were living in far off lands across the Mediterranean sea in areas around Rome & Greece in the Roman Empire. The pagan people living in those areas were worshipping the Sun, the Moon, the Mars, the Venus and various other stars as their gods. In addition, they were also worshipping many other stone idols and deities. Paul began to preach Christianity to these people his own band of mysticism. Paul gave them an alternate god in the person of Jesus Christ to worship. The people thought they got a nearer god instead against the distant gods, in the person of Jesus who had performed a number of miracles as well. In order to win the confidence and faith of these people, Paul therefore had to compromise with their beliefs & legends. Paul said circumcision of males was not really necessary. This he said despite the fact that Jesus himself was circumcised on the 8th day after his birth. Gentiles were already celebrating Sunday as a holiday in honor of their god-the Sun. Paul replaced Saturday-the day of Sabbath of the Jews with Sunday to coincide with their holiday, which they were already observing. The gentiles used to observe 25th of December as the birthdate of their god-the Sun. Now, this date was adopted as the birth date of their new found god- the Jesus. Paul also rejected the Jewish form of worship, which was practiced in the Synagogues, i.e., the WORSHIP OF ONE TRUE GOD. Instead, Paul offered Jesus Christ as an alternate god. He raised the status of Jesus Christ from the Messenger of God to the “son of God”. Paul borrowed from pagans and gave the concept of “Trinity”, i.e., the three gods- the father, the son, and the holy ghost. Paul put forward the concept of a “begotten son of God”. But all of these were contrary to the preaching and teachings of Jesus Christ. There was therefore an opposition from Barnabas.

Barnabas, as recorded in the Acts, represented those who had become a personal disciple of Jesus and was among the dynamic evangelist among the disciples, and Paul cooperated with them for some time. He is mentioned in the ff. Verses of the Bible (Acts 4:36-37; 9:26-27; 11:22-30; 12:25; 13:1-4; 14:11-15; Paul’s Epistles to the Galatians 2:9). The rift is in Acts 15. In the Acts, Barnabas disappears after the rift.

His first call as a Messenger of Jesus Christ (a.s.), son of Mary, was through a dream as stated in Acts 26:14-16:

I heard a voice say to me in Hebrew, “Saul, Saul! Why are you persecuting me? You are hurting yourself by hitting back like an ox kicking against its owner’s stick. Who are you Lord? I asked. And the Lord answered, ‘I am Jesus, whom you persecute. But get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as my servant. You are to tell others what you have seen of me today and what I will show you in the future.”

The Second Call of Paul as Messenger is in First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians or 1 Corinthians 3:10-11 that states:

“Using the gift that God gave me, I did the work of an expert builder and laid the foundation, and another man is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. For God has already placed Jesus Christ as the one and only foundation and no other foundation can be laid.”

His Final Call as stated in First Letter of Paul to Timothy or 1 Timothy 2:5-7:

“For there is one God, and there is one who brings God and mankind together, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself to redeem all mankind. That was the proof at the right time that God wants everyone to be saved, and that is why I was sent as an apostle and teacher of the Gentiles, to proclaim the message of faith and truth.”
49.
IslamTheTrueReligion
July 27, 2009 • 1:42 am

Bismillahir-ir-Rahman-ir-Rahim (In The Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful)

To R_not, All Christians, ex-muslims and others,

I firmly reject your offer to accept Jesus Christ (a.s.), son of Mary, as son of God, Lord and Saviour. But I firmly believe that Jesus Christ, son of Mary, is a Saviour to Mankind in his second coming – - he will save mankind from further degeneration through the uncorrupted Book of God, the Qur’an.

Muslims have Qur’an as the Book of God and Hadith as compilations for the sayings of Prophet Muhammad on how he did and said about different matters while he was alive. Some compilers of hadith are authentic and some are not.

The New Testament as this is the source of Authority for Christians cannot be compared with the Qur’an since the Gospels according to Mark, Luke, Matthew and John are like UNAUTHENTIC Hadith, not the Word of God. They are UNAUTHENTIC Hadith because these compilations don’t have chain of narrators going back if they are what really Jesus Christ (a.s.), son of Mary, said and did. They are not eyewitnesses of Jesus Christ (a.s.). In addition, as I already wrote before, the time frame of these Gospels were written 60 to 100 years after Jesus Christ (a.s.), son of Mary, left the earth. Moreover, Acts, Romans, Corinthians and Other Paul’s Letter will show to all of you Christians that you are following St. Paul who was never a prophet, never a messenger of God, and was not even a disciple of Jesus Christ (a.s.), son of Mary.

While Allah (s.w.t.) says so straight in the Qur’an about Jesus Christ (a.s.), son of Mary, about his birth, his mission, his miracles, his disciples, he is compared to prophet Adam (a.s) who was created without mother and without father, his crucifixion that he was saved and taken to heaven alive in his own body, etc…
50.
IslamTheTrueReligion
July 27, 2009 • 1:53 am

Hello my christian friends and fellows,

My sisterly advice to all of you, seek without bias if you need to ask it to Holy Ghost or to Jesus Christ, ask that they show you the truth and the light. It is for your own soul, not for my soul, not for the soul of the founder of faithfreedom.org Ali Sina who want to destruct humanity. Jesus Christ (a.s), son of Mary, will deny you of teaching and telling you Christians to worship him for he never did that. St. Paul did that to you.

Christians here said muslims are brainwashed. Why do you let St. Paul brainwash all of you?

Christians here said Muslims are following a false prophet. Why do you follow St. Paul who was never a prophet, never a Messenger of God, not even a disciple of Jesus Christ (a.s.), son of Mary?

Christians here said Muslims are following prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s), the Dajjal? Do you know what Dajjal means? Dajjal is arabic word for Anti-Christ. Why do muslims believe and respect Jesus Christ (a.s), son of Mary, as apostle, prophet and messenger of God if Muslims are Anti-Christ?

Christians here also said that Allah (s.w.t) is “devil/satan”. Christians who speak arabic call God, Allah! Allah (s.w.t) is the one who created Jesus before Jesus became son of God, who created Ali Sina and All Humanity that Ali Sina wants to destruct. Allah (s.w.t.) created the Heavens and the Universe, who created and give all the blessing you enjoy in this short life.
51.
IslamTheTrueReligion
July 27, 2009 • 2:10 am

To londonspirit,

Assalamu ‘alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuho, brother.

Focus on Tawheed (Oneness of Allah) to the ignorants because this is the most important. This is what sets Muslims apart from Non-Muslims. Even if you say all good and the best things about Islam, they will never understand that. In return, they will just make you doubt of your own faith in Allah (s.w.t.).

But once they understand Tawheed. They will see the beauty of Islam.

If you cannot focus on Tawheed, leave them and don’t waste your time with them. They are useless to talk about. They are Shaytan themselves. Just leave them to Allah (s.w.t.) that they will be guided as Allah (s.w.t.) also guided us.

Waa salam, brother.
52.
Marie
July 27, 2009 • 2:21 am

ITTR:

Have all of you ever wondered why the New Testament has Acts and Paul’s Letters? What are the role of Paul’s Letters? What is Acts, Romans, etc… for? These should give you an idea of who preach and teach Christianity.

I say:

Paul’s letters and the letters of the other apostles such as Peter and James are important in regards to the spread of Christianity and of the early Church. They are also important because they deal with the nature of Christ and salvation.

ITTR:

Paul was not a prophet and messenger of God. He was also not a disciple of Jesus Christ (a.s), son of Mary. He was a jew and inhabitant of Tarsus. He had spent a long time in Rome and was a Roman citizen. As Cardinal Danielou (the author of “A New Representation of the Origins of Christianity: Judeo Christianity) says that Paul had an access among the Jews who were living in far off lands across the Mediterranean sea in areas around Rome & Greece in the Roman Empire. The pagan people living in those areas were worshipping the Sun, the Moon, the Mars, the Venus and various other stars as their gods. In addition, they were also worshipping many other stone idols and deities. Paul began to preach Christianity to these people his own band of mysticism. Paul gave them an alternate god in the person of Jesus Christ to worship. The people thought they got a nearer god instead against the distant gods, in the person of Jesus who had performed a number of miracles as well. In order to win the confidence and faith of these people, Paul therefore had to compromise with their beliefs & legends. Paul said circumcision of males was not really necessary. This he said despite the fact that Jesus himself was circumcised on the 8th day after his birth. Gentiles were already celebrating Sunday as a holiday in honor of their god-the Sun. Paul replaced Saturday-the day of Sabbath of the Jews with Sunday to coincide with their holiday, which they were already observing. The gentiles used to observe 25th of December as the birthdate of their god-the Sun. Now, this date was adopted as the birth date of their new found god- the Jesus. Paul also rejected the Jewish form of worship, which was practiced in the Synagogues, i.e., the WORSHIP OF ONE TRUE GOD. Instead, Paul offered Jesus Christ as an alternate god. He raised the status of Jesus Christ from the Messenger of God to the “son of God”. Paul borrowed from pagans and gave the concept of “Trinity”, i.e., the three gods- the father, the son, and the holy ghost. Paul put forward the concept of a “begotten son of God”. But all of these were contrary to the preaching and teachings of Jesus Christ. There was therefore an opposition from Barnabas.

I say:

Roman religion was considered blasphemous in the eyes of Judaism and Paul a devout Jew ( a pharissee ) and he was originally the persecuter of Christians. He was also responsible for their deaths.

Jesus was resurrected on sunday three days after the passover and that is why we worship Jesus on sunday.

Many early Jews did not accept Christ as messenger of God and in fact Jesus even denied he was prophet in Matthew 16:13-17.

Paul did borrow the concept of the trinity of the pagans. Infact Jesus said he was the father, son, and holy spirit in Matthew 28:19.

ITTR:

I firmly reject your offer to accept Jesus Christ (a.s.), son of Mary, as son of God, Lord and Saviour. But I firmly believe that Jesus Christ, son of Mary, is a Saviour to Mankind in his second coming – – he will save mankind from further degeneration through the uncorrupted Book of God, the Qur’an.

I say:

I firmly reject your attempt to prove Islam is the true religion of God and Muhammed and I firmly reject Allah and his messenger Muhammed.

ITTR:

The New Testament as this is the source of Authority for Christians cannot be compared with the Qur’an since the Gospels according to Mark, Luke, Matthew and John are like UNAUTHENTIC Hadith, not the Word of God. They are UNAUTHENTIC Hadith because these compilations don’t have chain of narrators going back if they are what really Jesus Christ (a.s.), son of Mary, said and did. They are not eyewitnesses of Jesus Christ (a.s.). In addition, as I already wrote before, the time frame of these Gospels were written 60 to 100 years after Jesus Christ (a.s.), son of Mary, left the earth. Moreover, Acts, Romans, Corinthians and Other Paul’s Letter will show to all of you Christians that you are following St. Paul who was never a prophet, never a messenger of God, and was not even a disciple of Jesus Christ (a.s.), son of Mary.

I say:

We know Herod and Pontius Pilate did exist and Jesus’s crucifixion gives an accurate portrayel of Roman execution.

ITTR:

Christians here said Muslims are following prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s), the Dajjal? Do you know what Dajjal means? Dajjal is arabic word for Anti-Christ. Why do muslims believe and respect Jesus Christ (a.s), son of Mary, as apostle, prophet and messenger of God if Muslims are Anti-Christ?

I say:

ITTR knock it off with the I respect Jesus crap. The only people Muslims are allowed to hold in high regard is Allah and his prophet Muhammed.

ITTR:

Christians here also said that Allah (s.w.t) is “devil/satan”. Christians who speak arabic call God, Allah! Allah (s.w.t) is the one who created Jesus before Jesus became son of God, who created Ali Sina and All Humanity that Ali Sina wants to destruct. Allah (s.w.t.) created the Heavens and the Universe, who created and give all the blessing you enjoy in this short life.

I say:

Allah is not my creator nor does he bless my life and I certainly don’t believe in your heathen pagan moon-god/satan.
53.
Marie
July 27, 2009 • 2:26 am

ITTR:

They are Shaytan themselves.

I say:

I am a devil worshipper and I am proud of it!
54.
IslamTheTrueReligion
July 27, 2009 • 3:47 am

Bismillahir-ir-Rahman-ir-Rahim (In The Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful)

To surj, ex-muslims, christians, atheists, and other non-muslims

surj asked on July 26, 2009 9:53 P.M. “Please tell me what wrong have I done to your Allah or his messenger, that he had prepared Blazing Fire for me?”

The issue is not in the eyes of Ali Sina who wants to destruct humanity, not in the eyes of the book “Facts are Facts, The Untold Story Of India’s Partition” By Wali Khan, not in the eyes of the bashers, mockers, haters and liars of this site and its related site and all sites of the same interest – - to bash, mock, hate against muslims.

The issue is in the SIGHT or EYES of ALLAH (s.w.t) who created you, Ali Sina and All Humanity that he intends to destruct, in the EYES of Allah (s.w.t.) who created the Whole Universe and ALL IN IT!

In the sight of God Almighty to worship any creature or created being be it of a natural phenomena like the fire (Parsee’s/Zoroastrian’s faith), planet, stars, the sun, trees & animals (like Hindus in India) or a human being like Jesus Christ (P.B.U.H.), son of Mary, or the subtle form of idolatry of Judaism or the spirit that lives in you of Buddhism or the atheist mentality that God is an imaginary being and all other sects and religions amount to “Kufr” (Disbelief), “Shirk” (polytheism) and “tughyan” (arrogation or association = giving partners or attributing unjustly to the essence, person and nature of Almighty God), the three deadliest sins that the Creator of Heavens and Universe and All In It God Almighty “Allah” can never and will never forgive and the reward is Hell in life after death.

Consider this, everything in life has purpose. Allah (s.w.t.) created ALL CREATIONS with a purpose – TO WORSHIP HIM, nobody else and nothing else. Therefore, all creation including all parts of your body worship Him every second of the day and night. For example, sun rises in the east and sets on the west while in between these time gives light for the day. Same with your own body, your heart beats, your blood flows, etc… That is how Allah puts or commands them to Worship Him. ALL CREATIONS, therefore, function under the will & command of Allah (s.w.t.).

Having said that, God created us equal to recognize Him as God and no others before our body is sent to earth. We all acknowledge Him as God and no others when our souls were created, before our human body is sent to earth. But human beings tend to forget that God since human beings tend to think or associate God with something that we see around us or not anymore thinking of God at all like the atheists & agnostics.

Even then, God did not leave us to go astray forever. This is the reason, God kept sending and chosing prophets and messengers to bring people to what they have forgotten – - to acknowledge God Only and no one else and nothing else. All prophets and messengers of God have the same message to people – just acknowledge and worship God Only and no one or nothing else.

The first prophet as well as the first man who was created without mother and without father was Adam (a.s.) and the last prophet was prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s). Jesus (a.s.), son of Mary, came before prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s). Jesus (a.s.), son of Mary, will come again because he is a man like us. He needs to taste death like us. As well as, he has a role on his second coming. He will kill DAJJAL (the Anti-Christ) and establish Islam in the whole world, like what prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s) did in Arabia. All belief and faiths even atheism already existed during the time of prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) but he established Islam before he died after 23 years of prophethood.

All religions and different sects of religions teach good things and good rules on how to live life. However, they all have common set of faiths – - the worship or calling a created being God which is a big NO to God Almighty. This is the reason that such sects or religion or ideologies are named after a man who supposedly teach or reform humanity. For example, Christianity is named after Christ (a.s.) who worships a man since Jesus is called son of God, Lord and Saviour, Zoroastrianism after Zoroaster who worships fire, Hinduism after tribe Hindus who worship trees and animals, etc…

During the prophethood of Prophet Moses (a.s.) (as he is the prophet of the Jews), the Commandment of Allah was to follow the message & teachings of Prophet Moses (a.s.). When Allah sent Jesus Christ(a.s.), son of Mary, the Commandment of Allah was to follow the message & teachings of prophet Jesus (a.s.), son of Mary, not of prophet Moses, since the teachings of prophet Moses was already incorporated on what Jesus Christ(a.s.), son of Mary, taught. In the same way, that from 1,400 years ago (7th century), when Allah chose prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s) as his last prophet, the Commandment of Allah is for all humanity (mankind & jinns) from that time until the day of judgment to follow the message & teachings of prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s), since all the teachings of all the prophets before him were already incorporated in what he taught.

Even Jesus Christ(a.s.), son of Mary, on his second coming, his role as what prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s) said:

“By Him (Allah) in Whose Hands my soul is, surely, Jesus, son of Mary will shortly descend amongst you (Muslims) and will judge mankind justly by the Law of the Qur’an and will break the Cross and kill the pigs and abolish the Jizya (a tax levied upon the non-Muslims who are under the protection of Muslim Government. The Jizya Tax will not be accepted by prophet Jesus (a.s.) & all mankind will be required to embrace Islam). Then there will be abundance of money and nobody will accept charitable gifts.”

That means, Jesus (a.s.), son of Mary, will bring justice to the earth by the Laws & Jurisprudence of Islam, the Islamic shari’ah, the Divine Laws of Allah.

Allah is Just and Merciful. The Shia Muslim (the religion of Ali Sina before he became atheist) who believes in Allah (s.w.t) but worships & asks pious dead people which is certainly a form of shirk (polytheism) will certainly not suffer eternal damnation but will still be accountable for such action.

Eternal damnation/hell is given only to those who don’t have the tiniest as an ant of the faith in Allah. Why? Because it’s a sign of ungratefulness or not being thankful for the favours that He granted. He is the One who created, shapes us & gives life. Everything we owed to Him. He only asks from us to acknowledge or recognize Him in return. He also did not leave us astray so that everybody before departing this temporary life will receive the message of Islam.

May Allah (s.w.t.) Give All of You His Gracious Guidance. Ameen.
55.
IslamTheTrueReligion
July 27, 2009 • 3:59 am

To All Christians, ex-muslims and non-muslims

To accept Jesus Christ (a.s.), son of Mary, as son of God, Lord and Saviour cannot save you and give you life forever and ever . He will even deny telling you that since its St. Paul invented and brainwashed all christians of original sin, etc…

Only you yourself can save you, not even Ali Sina that you defend so well. Only your own faith, actions and deeds. And that faith is faith in Allah (s.w.t), the One who created you, Ali Sina and All Humanity that Ali Sina intends to destruct.

May Allah (s.w.t.) Give All of You His Gracious Guidance. Ameen.
56.
IslamTheTrueReligion
July 27, 2009 • 4:03 am

Marie said “Paul’s letters and the letters of the other apostles such as Peter and James are important in regards to the spread of Christianity and of the early Church. They are also important because they deal with the nature of Christ and salvation.”

After the disappearance of Jesus Christ to heaven, “the little Group of Apostles” formed a Jewish sect, headed by James, the younger brother of Jesus Christ. With James was Peter and later on John and Barnabas also joined in. James successor was Simeon, son of Cleopas, a cousin of Jesus Christ. They observed the “Law of Prophets, which Jesus had come, not to destroy but to fulfill” (Math. 5:17). They continued to live as Jews and practiced what Jesus had taught them. They were devout and practicing Jews and they were distinguished from their neighbors, only by their faith in the message of Jesus. The question of the origin of Jesus, his nature and relation to God, which later became so important, was not raised among these early disciples. That Jesus was a man supernaturally endowed by God was accepted without question. Nothing in the words of Jesus or the events in his life led them to modify this view. According to Aristides, one of the earliest apologists, the worship of the early “Christians” was more purely monotheistic even than that of the Jews.

LOL, See you in life after death, Ameen.
57.
IslamTheTrueReligion
July 27, 2009 • 4:10 am

Marie,

Allah (s.w.t.) is God of Muslims, Non Muslims and the Whole UNiverse – - not a moon, sun pagan god that you think.

All religions including Christianity with “Jesus as Son of God”, Judaism “Jews”, idol worshippers of different kinds including those who believe “Angels as Daughters of God” already existed at the time of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s). This was the reason that God Almighty ( “Allah” in Arabic) revealed the verse of Who He IS. Allah said to Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s) to Say to People:

“He is Allah, the One and Only. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute. He does not give birth to anyone nor did anyone give birth to Him. And there is No one equal to Him.”
58.
R_not
July 27, 2009 • 4:25 am

It seems that defending the indefensible, mohammed, is a full time job for muslims. Why bother? So they start attacking others such as Paul, or someone else that they don’t even know anything about.

It is such a common theme – if they can’t deal with defending mohammed anymore – deflect onto a different subject.

They are having a hard time sticking to their own ‘religion’, or is it that they know that what they are defending is so atrocious? If they admitted to what the message of the koran is, and what mohammed was, they would have to admit that islam is a sham.

We should all pray for muslims. Because the one thing we forget is that if they do leave islam, they are outcasts among their family and friends at the very least, and at the very most they are dead.
59.
IslamTheTrueReligion
July 27, 2009 • 6:28 am

R_not and all others,

All of you are the one attacking, not us. All prophets and messengers were sent and chosen for the purpose of guiding the likes of you, Ali Sina, your leader, and others who are misguided for our life is unpredictable – - you could die anytime and there will no chance for you to get back on track if that happens.

First of all, it’s you R_not who said that prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) is a false prophet according to your gospel. Now, that you are the one who follows a false prophet, you are now saying that muslims cannot defend prophet Muhammad (s.a.ws.)

Even if humanity will not turn to Islam and will hate Islam forever, Jesus Christ (a.s.), son of Mary will revive Islam. He will have that job when he will come to earth again, he will establish Islam. He will not establish Christianity because Christianity is founded by St. Paul through his dream that Jesus Christ asked him to establish a new religion to the pagans who at that time worshipped planets, sun, moon & other celestial bodies.

Jesus Christ, son of Mary, did not establish Christianity.

Therefore, Jesus Christ will establish Islam because Islam is the religion of God (s.w.t) – - the God of the Universe, the God of Christians, Muslims, Jews and all Humanity.
60.
Demsci
July 27, 2009 • 7:28 am

IslamTheTrueReligion,

Ali Sina and many others on this site are atheists, darwinists, and you don’t impress them one iota when you discredit Christianity. Because there are plenty of other religions, faiths, ways of life, thinking, organizing society. Islam’s basic opponent is not Christianity. It was for maybe 1300 years, but now it’s basic opponents are democratic ways of thinking, organizing societies, which basically all other faiths have accepted.

Also a big opponent of Islam is Science, but that is also an opponent of Christianity, I hasten to admit. But first and foremost let us strive to be free to read, write, think, say what we want everywhere on this earth. To pursue progress, prosperity, happiness in a free way. It’s then no problem to be Islamic, or Christian, just as long as you let all the others free everywhere, so also in your Dar-ul-Islam! Make it Dar-ul-Democracy!
61.
R_not
July 27, 2009 • 7:31 am

ITTR wrote this: ‘After the disappearance of Jesus Christ to heaven…’

I guess that is the closest I have ever read that a muslim admitted that Jesus ‘disappeared’ to heaven. haha

I can’t figure out why you think that Jesus would come and revive islam. His message was the complete opposite of mohammed’s message. I think you guys are in lala land about all of that. He will come again to judge, but not to revive a fascism more destructive against fellow human beings than even communism, and nazism. Well, communism has come close in one century, but islam has been on a bloody jihad in some form (it ebbs and flows) for 1400 years while communism had a bit over a century to force itself on others and leave a blood bath behind it.

Maybe you need to crack open the Bible like I keep writing and do some reading. His message was what Marie said, Matthew 28:19-20.
“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

And the Sermon on the Mount (Matt 5: 3-12)
“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”

This is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of what mohammed and your allah are about.

I am telling you – even your koran says to read the Bible. I don’t think you are reading it though. And what you do quote back are from articles from muslim websites that they use over and over again so much so it gets tiring.

surah 10:94 and 10:37 – to read the ‘books before them’, or the Bible, the ‘Truth from our Lord’. This surah 10 had its wording abrogated/nullified, but maintained its authority for applications.
62.
R_not
July 27, 2009 • 7:46 am

Demsci, where do you get the thought that Christianity is against science? I don’t get that at all. I know MANY Christians – too many to even count – that are Doctors (Vets included), technicians/nurses at hospitals (including one of my brothers), in some aspect of data processing including some who actually work on the hardware and software development, scientists (at the UC system in the Bay Area) who are teachers, etc. I include all of these since some form of science has progressed us into these areas.

It is the Judeo-Christian societies that have advanced us into sciences. The atheists that are also included are not numerous enough, and if you want to include the communist atheists, and nazis – their science in the beginning was along the same lines of islam – weapons, how to kill more people. But there we only see islamists using the science of what was already created to make their weapons – cell phones, cars, bombs, etc. But, even the communists have done different types of science to get ahead other than just weaponry.

Much of the weaponry created by us, and created by the fascisms that I mention except islam, have been used for peacetime too. In fact, much of science was advanced rapidly during war times. (eg: the airplane, tank engines, nuclear science, etc)
63.
Demsci
July 27, 2009 • 8:02 am

Hi, R-not,

First; I enjoy your posts a lot. You are a great ally to have. I admire Brigitte Gabriel and ActforAmerica.

You ask me where I get the thought that Christianity is against Science? I really was thinking (and wanted saying) that Science has something against Christianity. But not in every way, just there where there are conflicting ways of seeking the truth, explaining earthly history, origines etc. Sometimes they both make contradictory claims, and on seeking truth Science refuses to back down. It criticizes Islam and Christianity on simply assuming too much without enough proper evidence and logic.

But let us not get into this and first and foremost fight together for our democratic, free way of living against an Islam that behaves very dominant, hegemonistic where it has power, hence logically threathens our countries and our fellow Christians and Darwinists, and Hindus and Buddhists.
64.
srizals
July 27, 2009 • 8:29 am

I’m here.
65.
IslamTheTrueReligion
July 27, 2009 • 10:57 am

Demsci, R_not, Darwinists, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists….,

The issue is not “democratic, free way of living against an Islam that behaves very dominant, hegemonistic where it has power, hence logically threathens our countries and our fellow Christians and Darwinists, and Hindus and Buddhists.”

The issue is “WHAT IS THE GREATEST EVIL IN THE SIGHT OF THE CREATOR, the ONE WHO CREATED Demsci, R_not, Darwinists, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and ALL HUMANITY!

Allah (s.w.t.) can forgive sins as as heaviest and greatest on this earth until the sky but He cannot forgive the deadliest sin – - the WORSHIP of CREATION like Christians who worship Christ (a.s), Hindus who worship trees and animals, Buddhists who do not believe that the world is created & that the spirit is in each individual, Darwinists that human beings & other creation evolve as species for billions of years where in fact all parts of human body and fossils discovered as evidence did not evolve but remain the same for eons of years – - an evidence that they are created, and all other sects and religions that are in one way or another calls a created being god.

Even muslims (like Shia Muslims, etc…) are prone to worship a created being since they ask help & pray to dead saints and dead pious or impious people. What can a dead do? Only Allah (s.w.t.) answers prayers whether the one who prays believe Him or Not. Allah (s.w.t.) is the Carer, Sustainer and Provider to ALL CREATION. His Mercy extends to everybody whatever belief one follows. But since Shia Muslim and others muslims who do SHIRK still believe in ALLAH, Allah (s.w.t.) will not let him suffer in Hell forever.

God created Hell for those who do not follow His Commands. Who then will be rotten into hell? The pious, peaceful, good people who who call a creature as god, denies God who created him – an unpardonable crime in the sight of God or the terrorist, bad Muslims who acknowledge the Creator as the One and Only God who has the right to be worshipped but committed a pardonable crime in the sight of God.

Compare that to a Christian’s faith to accept Jesus (a.s.) as son of God, Lord and Saviour, then you will be saved and live forever and ever. This kind has no accountability in ones actions at all!

Allah (s.w.t.) created Heaven and Hell so that there is accountability for ones actions. Thus, those who don’t follow His Commands have punishment in Hell. While those who follow goes to Heaven.

My friend, the choice is yours.

So, anti-Muslims and Anti-Islam, relax and be patient for surely, there is no doubt, everybody & everything in this world has a fixed period of time, Muslims & Islam will die but will rise and live forever….Ameen.
66.
Arpheel
July 27, 2009 • 11:27 am

hiye IslamTheTrueReligion

well before coming to attack on other you must look into your own self why do most of muslim’s get trouble by Christianity they come that He its is the St.paul who invented Christianity while on the same hand they deny the Gospel truth of Jesus that i m the way truth and life no one can come to father Un-less through me but still on the same hand say that there is another greater prophet from the land of Arabia un known to many still people are not sure where he belong when it come’s to talk about prophet personality muslim start running and hiding but they like attacking that paul said that and peter and john which they dont know what are they upto

think twice again that calling a Islam a religion or even a cult or even way of life

let see first month in the Islamic calender is not the birth of Holy Prophet or not even first mosque was created not even the appearing of Quaran a such powerful book but indeed the first month is when the first Islamic state was establish where Mohammad being a true prophet to the world become first military and political leader

well Goal of islam is not to change people’s living but its to establish a global establishment and all those who want to rule the world and want there do and do to establish on world well use it as a tool

in his own life all he did was to some how please him self not for the humanity He join hand with Jew in order to get more power to him he join hand with Christian and gave them the new story in order to get more power to himself he just attempt to brainwash them by saying that there scripture are corrupted

for instance accept a fact that Alexander the great is a British citizen Britain has there own culture and civilization but and in Britain it’s every one was the eye witness that he got assassinated by some one even this new’s get famous all over the Europe but a man appear in the midst of Africa forest that no no at all he was not assassinated but escape the death now tell me how many of you are going to accept it as fact first of all that Man is not similar with British culture and civilization then how can he create the story

john Mathew and other apostle are the eye witness of Jesus life but you deny there truth and accept some one is in in the midst of somewhere who have no sense even that what Jewish culture and civilization is all about

kind regards
67.
srizals
July 27, 2009 • 12:41 pm

Erm..Darwinist..brothers of the apes eh or is it descendants of the monkeys erm…Buddhist? Khmer Rouge Buddhist? Or Free Sex Siamese cutie pie Buddhist? Shooters at the back of praying defenseless Muslims, Yeah, u are a brave bunch. sawadika , Well, Christians, well, hmm baffled with which gospels to follow n which one is the real one..god ont rial, check them out., it seems they found a new gospel, well older than the gospels in the hands of the saints, Can’t wait to read them online…keep them comin guys, keep them comin..Atheist? Yeah, u r the most noble of them all eh?? Which group of atheist you belong 2? Soviet atheist, Pol pot’s atheist? Or when u die, u r manure, that’s all kinda atheist??? Judeo Christian or what??an ackward combination eh?A unholy marriage of the ape n the hippo, erm two completely different n loathe against each other n yet, u try to mismatched, sorry, matched them together eh..funny brain..shaming Muslims eh, u have no idea what u talking about..I’m going to deal with u guys after this, have to send my kids to tuition classes to learn the theory of a monkey that think he’s human. 15 mins 2 8.00 p.m. in the land of the Malays.
68.
srizals
July 27, 2009 • 2:52 pm

Demsci, read science and Islam, u scientifically retard, gosh,, I sure hope u r blind and deaf or something or a drunkard sex lunatic.

R not smart, or R not knowledgeable, hi ya ya ya yai.. Did u watch the passion of Christ by Mel Gibson?? It brings tears in my eyes to think that Christians? Erm.. well not all of them. I’m not going to be a bonehead like u, who like to make a simplistic generalization and too pudden-head to make specific classification which is one of the scientific methods well known to the scientific society. (I don’t think these atheists are that scientific, do u?) which sect actually do u belong 2?? the Jehovah’s witness, the Christians who accepts christ as a messenger of God, or gentle and peaceful Christians that would love to cleanse their dirty souls, n bloody hands with of course, not with their own blood, (they fond of killing but very afraid of dying) but the blood of the son of god,eh?, not like Muslims, they bleed to cleanse the world from tyranny and oppressions of the monkey people, who think they can do anything, anywhere whatever they want to, they are free, free to kill, free to maim, free to claim lands of others, free to attack others, literally or in this hate website n a couple more by the danish people.
N I sure you never head of the gospel of Barnabas eh?

Oh, the christian Serbs, burners of 119 Muslims, helpless trapped in two houses, got a life n his accomplice 30 years, the christian USA soldiers that tortured and gang raped an Iraqi girl and chopped her to pieces and burned pieces of her remains and also killed all her family members to avoid eh, suffering of the family, (yeah, you are sicker than I thought) to concealed the truth, atheists, just like u.
Well they also got a humane civilized sentence in a prison and with chances to get parol n released much earlier. Yeah I do admire your Western civilization of gay marriages, gay adoptions, pedophile priests, abortions, drunk drivers, n of course not to forget, strange diseases you created for the world. Find out scientifically the origins of the dreaded diseases in the world, the mad cow disease, the avian flu, the swine flu, HIV, Aids, syphilis, etc. etc. n you will be amazed that they all originated non other from non muslims country.
Well, most genocide of the human race, sorry all the genocide of the human race are done by non muslims too. Pol Pot, Khmer ves Khmer, Hutu vs Tutsi. Christians vs Jews. It was the muslims, the Albanians Muslims who risk their own lives to shelter jews, yeah the pogroms too. Blood thirsty peaceful modern Christians that get away with all the burden of sins since god wrath is unleashed on his son on the cross eh? You sick bast…ops sorry.

Erm, science that help mankind eh??? How many?? R u conting those who thrive by it or perished by it??
The ten of millions who perished during world war 1 or world war 2, the Christians wars with the logical scientific ungodly atheist zionist jews?? Yeah the japs did deserve to be nuke, the r powerful nuclear country at that time c, just like saddam, n just like bushy bulls..it said, god told me there was nukes under my pillow, ops soli, in the hands of the filthhy rich saddam hussein n iraqis, let’s steal their wealth n oil, sorry liberate Kuwait from their brothers. Yeah, I see your point, bushy head. Killed millions in order to safe a few. Your logic baffles meThan Science is even more evil than any religion,eh? Since more died because of their scientific discoveries and I’m not refering to the lab rat with nose and ears grown on them. Geez, Scientist, well not all are loony. I salute the humanist Scientist that use Science for the good of mankind not annihilate thier own species in mass extinction.

You sure talk a lot for an idioto. Millions perished not in the hands of the Muslims, the 6 millions jews, by christian Germans, no, not nazi, smartie pants, they were and still r christian franks. Nazi is just an idea, maybe closer to atheist’s idea of worldly order of abortions, sex till u drop…I mean drop dead with Aids, HIV, the beautiful disease named syphillis, gornea etc. etc. eh? Lovely names for diseases that only inflicts the monkey people that called as the cattle people by the zionist. Zionist jews, n now recently some lunatic peaceful loving christians who held dearly their ten commandments, one of them thou shalt not worship others with God, n
Thou shalt not kill. Erm,, no wonder christians nations are all in a mess, with rampant sex diseases. Well the christian french even invented the guilotine, to eh, cut of head scarf from Muslims not nuns to eh,,,assimilate muslims to frenchie murderer minded guilotine of course. 50 thousands over died by it.

Now, compare with the death toll Islam and Muslims inflicted on mankind. Compare the death toll wars waged by Prophet Muhammad n the early Muslims. Millions? Ten of millions, thousands? Then of thousands? Yeah, we fought wars, but u guys, all of u, outbest us with ur genocide level of inguinity of the genious eh. U like to kill and maim human beings, the more hideous n prolong the suffering the better. White prosphorous bombs, mother of all bomb aka little nuclear bomb, u have fancy names for such hideous devices eh? scientific achievement eh. Yeah, Islam will of course oppose this kind of scientific invention of terminator kinda thing. Count the heads, if u dare. U r hideous killers, vampires, yeah, l mean it literally to?? No, we don’t have draculas n vampires, drinker of blood n sick mind who love to torture the helpless humans and fond of burning people alive. Yeah u, I’m not talking about the Muslims, we never ever have any burning alive anyone n sit back and enjoy the show. You can’t say the same can’t u liar?? Even Cranmer died on the stake. I sure hope he died with faith in the real god, n he need not suffer a second burning of eternity.

No don’t believe the Hindus, they r a bunch of two tongued creature almost similar to the snakes, well, not all of them. Only a bunch of yogis self hate n blaming others kinda people. Some Hindus in my country are yelling, help we are being massacred and millions of our little temples for each one of us, illegally built by devoted Hindus on malay lands, eh, we thought we are malay too, ops, thousand apologies,,are being destroyed for trespassing on people’s land!

U dare change history eh? If it wasn’t for the Monguls, the sultanate of the delhi, u would be long gone with your self destruct mode. Satee, er…mm need I mentioned about this beatiful rituals of devoted hindu wife had to endure after the death of her husbands? How about dowrees, no, not marriage gift of a man to a woman, it’s an upside down society. Its the women that had to feed the lazy yoga men. . they had to do all bone breaking maneuvers n don’t have time to bath with cow’s urine and drink some of it to eh,,,purify their mouth by killing all the germs in their never seen a toothbrush kinda mouth. U were doomed that time. It was the Muslims that got u to ur senses n u prosper until the British came. Come on, Muslims r still minority in India. If they were lite the christian Germans, u would be a small group of minority well, since u love to kill yourself and burn your widows, n sold your daughters to prostitution and to pedophile christian unmarried men of god, remember?? Hindu hate Christian u know, They killed, torched churches n mob killing, no not like muslims riot burning the flags n dummies kinda thing, the real burning of men, helpless women n children, they r good at it. They also good at sex. They even worshiped the penis, Don’t believe me eh, well, that sure shows somethin eh, I mean your wide n vast knowledge of there is all to know. Mr. know it all, Shame on you, descendents of mass murderers, of prophets n the weak ones. We sure do …loathe at your bravery! Marvelled with your own brain eh? Well that’s brainy!
Shame on you!
69.
Demsci
July 27, 2009 • 4:47 pm

So ITTR, you see as the most important how Allah will judge us.

Well, many of us can appreciate it when after hard thinking a person chooses a religion he sees as the truest and the best. It is just that there are so many Muslims only Muslim because their parents, relatives, peoples expected, demanded it from them, not by hard thinking. Leaving Islam is very much discouraged. There are Muslims who do not care to think, or who cannot read, who do not have access to broad reliable information.

But in democratic countries we aim to let people be autonomous, independent, using their Free Will, that God gave them (as a Darwinist I still believe in God). And is it not what God wants that all Muslims were voluntary Muslims, having considered all options, like you, and still choosing Islam? Why do Muslims even want power over people who do not want Islam (any more?).
70.
R_not
July 27, 2009 • 4:48 pm

Demsci – you are right!

RTTI – why don’t you worry about your soul and let others worry about their own souls? To think that you should judge whether or not Christians, or any other non-muslim, is not saved is pure shirk. You, and other muslims, are putting yourselves right up there with God to think that you know who is saved and who is not ESPECIALLY when you muslims don’t have any idea if all the rituals you do will save you!

YOU, NOR ANY MUSLIM, are the judges of ANYONE souls.

I notice you completely ignore that the message of Jesus was completely different than the one that is in islam and then continue on a different subject of whether or not we are saved according to some god of yours who would create things just to throw them in hell.

srizals, I have no idea what your point is in your post except that to think that anyone other than the communists and nazis have out killed anyone is just a wish on your part. The facts speak differently.

What is going on in the countries where muslims are a majority or where their numbers are growing larger, where they are trying to land grab and drive people out are killing not only more people worldwide but also kill more muslims than any other group. I know the concept of ‘telling a lie often enough and it will become the truth’ of fascists but it doesn’t work anymore with people who are aware of what you are doing.

The tactic of just outright bashing a person is a very common thing to do – don’t answer to the message of Jesus and mohammed being different and that the idea that muslims think Jesus is going to revive islam is a farce, or anything else concerning islam is a sham – you cannot do so you start bashing people. It is a way to dehumanize people so you don’t feel bad to what is happening to them. This is what mohammed, and all good fascist leaders, have done – dehumanize people and then the stooges that follow them will not be bothered if they do atrocities to them or do anything to help them.
71.
Marie
July 27, 2009 • 8:36 pm

ITTR:

Marie,

Allah (s.w.t.) is God of Muslims, Non Muslims and the Whole UNiverse – – not a moon, sun pagan god that you think.

All religions including Christianity with “Jesus as Son of God”, Judaism “Jews”, idol worshippers of different kinds including those who believe “Angels as Daughters of God” already existed at the time of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s). This was the reason that God Almighty ( “Allah” in Arabic) revealed the verse of Who He IS. Allah said to Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s) to Say to People:

“He is Allah, the One and Only. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute. He does not give birth to anyone nor did anyone give birth to Him. And there is No one equal to Him.”

I say:

Nowhere in the Torah or in Judaism does it say Angels are Daughters of God, the ancient Jews referred to Angels as Sons of God.

ITTR:

Allah (s.w.t.) is God of Muslims, Non Muslims and the Whole UNiverse – – not a moon, sun pagan god that you think.

I say:

He is not my creator nor my god and I refuse to submit your god Allah.

ITTR:

To All Christians, ex-muslims and non-muslims

To accept Jesus Christ (a.s.), son of Mary, as son of God, Lord and Saviour cannot save you and give you life forever and ever . He will even deny telling you that since its St. Paul invented and brainwashed all christians of original sin, etc…

I say:

If that’s the truth then I prefer to rot in hell then be the whore of your sadistic god Allah.

ITTR:

Consider this, everything in life has purpose. Allah (s.w.t.) created ALL CREATIONS with a purpose – TO WORSHIP HIM, nobody else and nothing else.

I say:

Then your Allah is a narcissist with big ego.

ITTR:

Eternal damnation/hell is given only to those who don’t have the tiniest as an ant of the faith in Allah. Why? Because it’s a sign of ungratefulness or not being thankful for the favours that He granted.

I say:

What reason should I be grateful towards the false god Allah since he did not create me? I have no gratefulness towards him and if he does exist I refuse to give him thanks.

ITTR:

Allah (s.w.t.) can forgive sins as as heaviest and greatest on this earth until the sky but He cannot forgive the deadliest sin – – the WORSHIP of CREATION like Christians who worship Christ (a.s),

I say:

I’m a Christian and I am proud of it. Why am I proud of it? Because Jesus my lord and savior gave his life up on the cross in order to bring salvation to the world. Jesus showed his love for us by giving up his love and to give something up for the sake of someone else is the ultimate act of love.

Did Muhammed die in order to save his followers? No. He was a warmonger,was given poison and died while having sex with Ayesha. That is Islam’s most holy prophet.

ITTR:

My friend, the choice is yours.

I say:

I already made my choice and I will follow Christianity.

As for you on the other hand, you can’t even think straight and your posts don’t make sense let alone give us a valid reason to accept Allah as god other then saying he is a narcissist who created people to worship him in order to boost his ego.
72.
IslamTheTrueReligion
July 27, 2009 • 8:44 pm

Demsci, R_not and others,

Sorry if I hurt your feelings when chatting with you people here. The first reason that I am here is to convey the Message of Truth that we are all created beings and that there is Only One Creator for all of us. Everything comes into Existence because of this One Creator. Therefore, ALL CREATIONS (i.e. the universe, jinns, angels, humanity, planets, stars, sun, moon, seas, mountains, animals, day & night, seasons, etc…) even all parts of our body (heart beats, blood flows, 10 fingers, etc…) function under the commands of a Creator.

But the response to all of you, specifically from R_not, is that the Creator that Muslims think is a moon, sun pagan god because prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s) existed on the 7th century and R_not quoted references from Gospels according to Matthew about false prophets and deceivers.

Since I was a devoted Catholic Christian, I knew what is Christianity. So, I exposed Paul, not Jesus Christ (a.s.), son of Mary, as founder of Christianity and the teachings of Christianity (i.e. original sin, redemption through flesh and blood of Jesus Christ a.s., etc…). And of course this teachings are all in the New Testament. I knew that there is no prophet in the New Testament who said that Jesus (a.s.) said “Worship Me. I am the son of God, Your Lord and Saviour. Thus, there is an evidence that Jesus Christ (a.s.) did not teach and preach Christianity. There is an evidence that St. Paul is the prophet of Christianity because all Paul’s Letters are in the New Testament.

So, I wrote back to R_not that you are the one following a false prophet, not Muslims who follows prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.), the true prophet.

Jesus Christ (a.s.), son of Mary, is a prophet and messenger of God. Like other prophets before him, he only had One Message – to Worship God Alone. The last of all the prophets, prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s) had that same message of Jesus Christ (s.a.w.s.) – To Worship God Alone.

But R_not said that muslims tactics is bashing the other when muslims cannot defend prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.). A tactic of muslims is to blame other people like St. Paul when they cannot defend their own religion. Again, R_not is saying that outright bashing is a very common thing to do for Muslims like our leader, prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s).

All articles on this site is bashing and attacking Muslims. Muslims, on the other hand, are not attacking or bashing back but CONVEYING THE MESSAGE OF TRUTH that a Creator created all of us and we will go back to Him in return. Our One Creator has Commands for all humanity.

And R_not said ” This is what mohammed, and all good fascist leaders, have done – dehumanize people and then the stooges that follow them will not be bothered if they do atrocities to them or do anything to help them.”

I am really sorry R_not if I hurt your feelings for conveying the Message of Truth that in the sight of the Creator who created all of us that I said “Who then will be rotten into hell? The pious, peaceful, good people who who call a creature as god, denies God who created him – an unpardonable crime in the sight of God or the terrorist, bad Muslims who acknowledge the Creator as the One and Only God who has the right to be worshipped but committed a pardonable crime in the sight of God.”

The conclusion of all this is that “MUSLIMS DO NOT ATTACK ANYBODY LIKE ALL ARTICLES IN THIS SITE AND SOME PEOPLE ON THIS SITE BUT MUSLIMS ARE JUST CONVEYING THE MESSAGE OF TRUTH.”

I’m sorry I made it in CAPS so that it’s clear. That’s not to shout on anybody.
73.
jonc
July 27, 2009 • 8:58 pm

Srizals:
I am sorry to say that I could not understand a lot of your post, regrettably I found much of your ‘english’ indecipherable and rambling (sorry), but I will respond to the points that I found clear.

You wrote: “Darwinist..brothers of the apes eh or is it descendants of the monkeys erm”.
Actually, as any half-decent Darwinist, or indeed anyone with a High-School education that included Science could tell you, it is neither. We are most definitely not descended from monkeys and are ‘cousins’ to the apes, since we and them share a common ancestor-species several millions of years in the past.

Christians know which Gospels to follow – the four in the NT. Many of us also know about the “Gospel of Barnabus” – a ~15th century forgery probably composed in the Moslem-controlled Grenada, not to be confused with the late 1st or early 2nd century “Epistle of Barnabus”.

May I remind you that it was the ‘Christian’ west that intervened against ‘christian’ Serbia to stop the atrocities against Muslims in the Balkans? (BTW, can you tell me which Muslim countries intervened against the Sudanese when they killed 1.9 million kufr in southern Sudan? How about when Indonesia killed 100k Christians in East Timor?)

In fact, give me one case when Muslims have fought against other muslims who were oppressing Kufr.
I’m not being snide here. Anyone, I’d really like to know if there is such a case in recorded history.

You wrote “Find out scientifically the origins of the dreaded diseases in the world, the mad cow disease, the avian flu, the swine flu, HIV, Aids, syphilis, etc. etc. n you will be amazed that they all originated non other from non muslims country.”
May I point out that the ‘origins’ of these diseases (flus’) is where they were first detected, not necessarily where they started. Such things (esp. for bird flu which was probably in wild bird populations before infecting chickens) are notoriously hard to pin down. In fact previous outbreaks have been named after the country of first detection because it was impossible to go further with the medical tech. of the day.
Influenza type viruses have been on the planet for millenia, so all areas of the world will have been ’sources’ for it at one time or another.

HIV, Aids: Again a high school education would tell you that HIV is the infective viral agent and AIDS the disease it (eventually) causes, so HIV-Aids is one disease, not two.

Mad cow disease -OK, that was the UK (probably). Due to the (stupid) feeding regime used at the time. Remember, this is neither bacterial nor viral in nature, but prion based, so not a disease at all in the classical sense.

Are you suggesting that Moslems and their countries are ‘magically protected’ against disease? I don’t think that fact bears you out.
How about Leprosy for example?

I will give you that “most genocide done by non-muslims”. But, most genocide hasn’t been done by ANY one religious group, so your point is?
I also think that you confuse “genocide” with “war”.

I also note that you attempt to compare the death-toll of Mo and his companions with modern warfare and then lay that at the door of Christianity.
Why not be fair about this? Compare the death-toll racked up by Mo et al against that of Jesus and his companions (1st generation Christos).

Again, I’m sorry if I’ve missed points you made, but I found your style practically indecipherable, despite several readings (my lack, I’m sure) and I’m not qualified to respond to your Hindu section (even if I understood it).
74.
Marie
July 27, 2009 • 9:15 pm

ITTR:

Since I was a devoted Catholic Christian, I knew what is Christianity. So, I exposed Paul, not Jesus Christ (a.s.), son of Mary, as founder of Christianity and the teachings of Christianity (i.e. original sin, redemption through flesh and blood of Jesus Christ a.s., etc…). And of course this teachings are all in the New Testament. I knew that there is no prophet in the New Testament who said that Jesus (a.s.) said “Worship Me. I am the son of God, Your Lord and Saviour. Thus, there is an evidence that Jesus Christ (a.s.) did not teach and preach Christianity. There is an evidence that St. Paul is the prophet of Christianity because all Paul’s Letters are in the New Testament.

I say:

The fact you were once Catholic means dittily squat. Alot of Christians do not read the Bible let alone comprehend it’s message ( I guess that includs you ). There is no evidence that Jesus preached Islam. Your accusation of Paul being the prophet of Christianity because his writing are in the new testament proves nothing. The letters of Peter and James is also included in the new testament and Revelations was written by John. Does that make Peter, James, and John of padmos prophets of Christianity because their letters are included in the book of the new testament?
75.
IslamTheTrueReligion
July 27, 2009 • 9:23 pm

Demsci & R_not,

As I wrote before “eternal damnation/hell” goes only to those who don’t have the tiniest as an ant in the faith in Allah (s.w.t.). Our Creator, Allah (s.w.t.), is Master On the Day Of Judgment. He is the One who has a final say since He is the Only One who knows the deepest corner of your heart.

Like Demsci said he is a Darwinist but he still believes in God. Only Allah knows what’s in Demsci’s heart. I encountered an atheist before who said that we evolve as species and God is an imaginary being. Everytime the word “evolve” is used I concluded it as Darwinist because it’s Darwin who has the Theory of Evolution. Then, this guy said that it is not disbelief though, it’s just an absense of belief. Then, I said “to believe in something like Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, JUdaism and other sects and religion or not to believe anything at all, like atheism, all of which amounts to Kufr (disbelief), Shirk (polytheism) and Tughyan (giving partner to the essence and nature of God Almighty), the three deadliest sins that Our Creator cannot forgive”.

Again, that guy was hurt. He said atheism or dawinism is not disbelief but in the sight of the One who created us, it’s disbelief. As human being, our intelligence is just 1% compared to the One who created us. As human being, we tend to reason out really intelligently like Ali Sina’s articles on this site. But we should see it in the eyes of the One who created us because He is our Creator so He knows what’s best and what’s worst for us.

With regards to my soul and your soul, again, I am not forcing anybody to accept Islam. I am just conveying the Message of Islam. Whether you want to accept it or not, it’s your own business, not mine.

And everytime I encountered a topic about belief in God, my final say to all is it’s only Allah (s.w.t.) who knows what’s in your heart, maybe you declare you don’t believe in Him but deep in your heart, you believe in Him. Allah (s.w.t.) is Just, Merciful and Knower of the Unseen, so, I will let Him be the Judge.
76.
londonspirit
July 27, 2009 • 9:59 pm

MARIE your response to my answer to your accusations, is nothing but speaking from the head an not speaking out of true knowledge.

I told you has all historical discoveries been identified and you replied back with the same accusation that historical evidence proves that there was no crucifiction in those time. That is not a valid response, because what we do not know of yet cannot be a contradiction. If the bible says that in the future people will travel at the speed of light and todays science tells us that it is impossible to travel at those speeds because of the g-force, does that mean that the bible is contradicting. NO SURELY IT DOESNT because this science has yet to be discovered.

Again in response to the three days and three nights, you wrote that jesus was talking about hell. That is pure crap. he wasnt talking about hell. He didnt mention hell he said belly of the earth. belly does not in anyway represent hell, and for you information you along with raisinhead says that according to the bible there is no hell. So how can jesus be talking about hell. You make no sense what so ever.

Further more lets imagine that jesus was talking about hell, which cannot be possible as there is no hell and also as everyones sin has been forgiven due to the death of jesus, he said three days and three nights just like jonah. Well MARIE answer this jesus went into the tomb on friday night and when mary magdelin went to the tomb on sunday morning he wasnt there.

LETS COUNT THE DAYS. YOU GET FRI AND SAT NIGHT AND YOU GET SAT MORNING. that totals upto 2 nights and 1 day. But the prophecy said 3 days and 3 nights. So either jesus who according to you is god couldnt count days, or the bible mis interpreted or jesus was lying, which cannot be possible.

So something has gone wrong here.
77.
IslamTheTrueReligion
July 27, 2009 • 10:01 pm

Demsci and R_not,

I posted a reply for you guys before this but did not go through. Here it is again. If the other one comes up, don’t read this one because this is rehashed.

Again, I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings. Our Creator, Allah (s.w.t.) is the Master on the Day of Judgement. It is only Allah (s.w.t.) who knows what’s in your heart.

Everytime, I read or heard the word “evolve”, I think of it as coming from Darwin since he has the “Theory of Evolution”. Demsci is Darwinist but believes in God. I once encountered an atheist that who said that God is imaginary being since we evolve as species for billions of years and he said that it is not disbelief though, it is just an absence of belief. So, I told him “to believe in something like Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, JUdaism and other sects and religion or not to believe anything at all, like atheism, all of which in the sight of God Almighty, Allah (s.w.t) who created the Heavens and Universe and everything in it amounts to Kufr (disbelief), Shirk (polytheism) and Tughyan (giving partner to the essence and nature of God Almighty) – - the three deadliest sins that the Creator of Heavens and the Universe and all in it cannot forgive.

Again, the guy was hurt. For him, it is not disbelief but in the sight of Allah (s.w.t.), it is disbelief. As human beings, our intelligence is just probably 1% of the intelligence of the One who created us. We can reason out really intelligently like Ali Sina here in this site but we should observe, look and see in the eyes and sight of our Creator because as Creator, He must know what is best and what is worst for us.

With regards to my soul and your soul, I just convey the Message of Islam, nothing more nothing less. Whether you want to accept it or not, that’s your business, not mine.

Finally, everytime I encountered about this topic, I always conclude that our Creator God Almighty Allah (s.w.t.) is Just, Merciful and Knower of the Unseen. Maybe you declared you don’t believe Him but deep in your heart, you believe in Him. Only Allah (s.w.t.) knows what’s in your heart. So, I’ll leave that to Allah (s.w.t.).
78.
Marie
July 27, 2009 • 10:54 pm

londonspirit:

I told you has all historical discoveries been identified and you replied back with the same accusation that historical evidence proves that there was no crucifiction in those time. That is not a valid response, because what we do not know of yet cannot be a contradiction. If the bible says that in the future people will travel at the speed of light and todays science tells us that it is impossible to travel at those speeds because of the g-force, does that mean that the bible is contradicting. NO SURELY IT DOESNT because this science has yet to be discovered.

I say:

Yes my answer is a valid response and your accusation is a logical fallacy. People more knowledgeable then I in this area will tell you Egyptians did not practice crucifixion. It was practiced among the Persians, Seluecids, and Romans and there is proof that only these empires practiced crucifixion. Crucifixion as an art started as a way to send a message out to their enemies by hanging their defeated enemies on a wooden stake. From then on the practice of crucifixion grew and became more elaborate. Besides with all archaeological work being done in Egypt don’t you think evidence of Egyptians performing crucifixion would have turned up a long time ago. Surely it would have been mentioned in their Hieroglyphics or writings

londonspirit:

Again in response to the three days and three nights, you wrote that jesus was talking about hell. That is pure crap. he wasnt talking about hell. He didnt mention hell he said belly of the earth. belly does not in anyway represent hell, and for you information you along with raisinhead says that according to the bible there is no hell. So how can jesus be talking about hell. You make no sense what so ever.

I say:

When Jesus talked about the belly he meant the belly of hell which refers to the grave or underworld ( hell ). He was using metaphorical language to describe what was going to happen to him.

Jonah 2:2

2 He said:
“In my distress I called to the LORD,
and he answered me.
From the depths of the grave [a] I called for help,
and you listened to my cry.

londonspirit:

Further more lets imagine that jesus was talking about hell, which cannot be possible as there is no hell and also as everyones sin has been forgiven due to the death of jesus, he said three days and three nights just like jonah. Well MARIE answer this jesus went into the tomb on friday night and when mary magdelin went to the tomb on sunday morning he wasnt there.

I say:

Well lets see since there is no possibility of Jesus surviving the crucifixion, his disciples must have take his body or he was resurrected. londonspirit most people who were crucified died on the cross as a result of blood loss and their wounds, so there is no chance Jesus would have survived and if he did he definitely would not have been able to get up remove the stone and walk away not will the amount of blood loss and injuries he had. It would have taken him weeks or months for him to fully recover, so there is no way he could be walking after three days.

londonspirit:

LETS COUNT THE DAYS. YOU GET FRI AND SAT NIGHT AND YOU GET SAT MORNING. that totals upto 2 nights and 1 day. But the prophecy said 3 days and 3 nights. So either jesus who according to you is god couldnt count days, or the bible mis interpreted or jesus was lying, which cannot be possible.

I say:

londonspirit the ancient Jews used different ways counting time then us modern people. There were no 24 hour time blocks. For all I know the could have counted the days by using the sun. Jesus died on friday so that means he was dead friday, saturday, and sunday until he was resurrected. This is just a guess that friday, saturday, and sunday could have been seen as three days.

londonspirit don’t forget you still have three of my accusations left to respond to so don’t even think about deviating away in order to avoid responding to them.
79.
R_not
July 27, 2009 • 10:55 pm

ITTR, thanks but you did not hurt my feelings. As for you knowing Christianity, I doubt that or else turning to a ‘religion’ that says it is ok to do whatever to anyone who is not a muslim would be the last thing on your mind to do.

I would bet that you get most of your information from a cleric and muslim websites who don’t even go into the background of mohammed, islam, or any of islam’s trail of blood left behind. The facade of peacefulness is a thin veneer. And we all know how cheap looking that veneer looks too.

You are here to do da’wa. Nothing else and you are bothered that we are talking about islam/mohammed as we do – basically we know what it is about and have no problem discussing it. It is a vile political movement on the same level as nazism and communism that uses religion as a front. And mohammed knew that all the religious rites would really fool the infidel. And if/when (because it is only a matter of time) when the infidels catch on – then for 1400 years they have killed them for passing the truth about islam/mohammed on to others.

And muslims are in a tizzy because the internet has opened islam’s pandora box to the world and they are trying to use their usual tactics of bullying, but even that doesn’t work. Then they try the often used deception, or taqiyya/kithman. And fortunately, that doesn’t work since it all goes back to that thin veneer. And when all of the above doesn’t work – bash, go back to bullying (lawsuits, etc).

One day you might wake up and realize that you should have probably just gone to a different Church if you didn’t get your needs fulfilled with the Church you were at. The weakness in islam isn’t that it sees others as being weak, the weakness in islam is that it is just false, and wrong.
80.
paarsurrey
July 27, 2009 • 11:03 pm

Hi friends

Our friend Bill Warner wrote the article on the hypothesis that Islam attacked on September 11, 2001
Islam is a religion founded fourteen centuris ago; Islam is not a person; it never attacked. It were the terrorists that attacked so it is wrong to accuse Quran/Islam/Muhammad for a thing they never did.It is an inhuman act to blame one for a thing one never did..

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
81.
R_not
July 27, 2009 • 11:07 pm

Marie wrote: ‘I say:

If that’s the truth then I prefer to rot in hell then be the whore of your sadistic god Allah.’

It seems that there will be a lot of muslim women, and muslim men, there too since none of them know if #1. allah told them the truth since it was nothing but the ‘greatest of deceivers’, or #2. none of them know what it really takes to be saved and it was all conveniently based on mohammed’s needs and greeds… and lusts… and I suppose we could list all the other 7 deadly sins since mohammed broke not only them, but all the 10 commandments too! And we all remember what their mysogynist prophet thought about women – most of them will be in hell. (I wonder where they are going to get their virgins from – I guess they will just have to settle for all those little boys that are supposed to be for their use instead)

Oh, and I will be there too – since worshiping allah/mohammed/the moon/and a black rock is the last thing I will do. Yeah, that black rock is supposed to have a conscious and speak for them on judgement day. There was an article in faithfreedom.org about it.
82.
IslamTheTrueReligion
July 27, 2009 • 11:11 pm

Marie,

It seems as well, you’re hurt of what I wrote. I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings. What I can say is that, I am not forcing you to accept Islam. That is not under my control. That’s between you and God whoever you believe as god if it’s Jesus Christ (a.s.), son of Mary, that’s fine. If it’s the Holy Ghost, that’s fine as well.

Guidance can be given only through the grace of God because He is the Only ONe who knows what’s in each of the hearts of a human being.

Thanks for reading my posts.
83.
srizals
July 28, 2009 • 12:14 am

Sorry if I startled you guys. Well, this site has lots of articles attacking Islam but very few defending its own way of thinking. It is the same with the rest of you guys. You play the attack card, the question card. But you are afraid to play the answer card. The explanation card. I’m sorry if I didn’t put my arguments in specific chronological order, I will do so afterward, got to go to school.

Maybe the headache of debating with others in the Worldwide Web finally got to me. You see, I live in the land of the Malays, seven hours ahead of you guys living in the Great Britain so most of the time while you are fresh and cheerful, I’m the one who had to fight the slumber that tries to catch me when I’m composing my arguments.

At least this site is brave enough to publish my post. I have to say thank you. Many other sites didn’t dare or maybe they just forgot to publish my response to their questions and failed to answer my questions. Maybe they just don’t want others to know their fault but just the fault of the Muslims, ordinary people just like you guys, who made mistakes, errs, prone to error and fault.

You are not focusing on Islam itself and fond of playing that hate card, dehumanizing Prophet Muhammad as an answer of your chosen ways, be it Atheist, Christians, Ex Muslims etc. etc. but you are too afraid to explain your worldviews regarding all the issues faced by humanity for example, the butchering of the Palestinian, both Muslims and Christians by the illegal state Israel. The only country built by terrorist, by confiscating lands of the Palestinian with terror and terrorizing the British Administrators, for example, King David hotel bombing and clubbing to death unarmed British soldiers. Who do you think made the British invented the word terrorist in their dictionary? Certainly not Muslims terrorist, It was the Irgun, the dreaded Zionist baby killers and slayers of the innocents. Maybe they are following the examples of the Christians that fond to exterminate them in pogroms and death camps. Can you say that Muslims are the one behind the gassing of 6 millions Jews by the Scientifically Advanced Christian Germans?

What is your explanation of your faith, things that you believe and their answers to the problems of the world. Famine, death camps, genocide, abortions, sexually transmitted diseases, wars that failed to identified the difference of warriors from babies.

Try to address this issue first and attack Islam second.

Sorry if I stepped on your foot when I entered this site. I will try to distinguish the websites that I’m participating in and not to generalize all of you as simple minded haters.
84.
londonspirit
July 28, 2009 • 12:17 am

NOW MARIE, i belive i have fulfilled your discussion an i aint deviating from the other three, its just I have no knowledge of that particular history so research has to be done in order to answer them. I aint just going to give a nonsense answer. But whilst i am researching lets look at your response.

You cannot win MARIE, how hard you try. Like i said before and i am saying again every year new hsitorical findings are being discovered. Please dont respond and say well it hasnt been found yet. And you mention about hylogriphics. Hylogrphics dont tell everything ok. Every year sand is uncovering new terrain and new hidden things.

Secondly to three days and three nights. My god are you stupid. Even if what you say that they didnt encounter 24 hour clocks it dont make no difference. because they still used sun rise and sunset for day and night. So still it cannot be three days and three nights. Stop trying to answer something that even einstein cant answer.

MARIE WROTE: londonspirit most people who were crucified died on the cross as a result of blood loss and their wounds, so there is no chance Jesus would have survived and if he did he definitely would not have been able to get up remove the stone and walk away not will the amount of blood loss and injuries he had

ANSWER: your answering using proved knowledge but by what you feel like answering. Because according to your bible, when mary magdelen went inside the tomb on sunday she found that the tomb door had been opened and that the sheets have been uncovered. Now do you think he died.lol.

And by the way when people are put up on the cross it is not meant for instant death. It is meant for a slow tortue. Many people used to get crucified for upto a few days and still remain alive.

And according to jesus prophcy of jonah, he had to be alive in the belly of the earth for the prophecy and miracle to be fulfilled. So if you say he died than the prophecy isnt fulfilled.

And dont give answers could have been. Your now doubting your scripture by saying that.

. now lets look at the authenticity of the bible in proper context. You cannnot judge the authenticiy of the bible just becuase some tablets were found, likewise you cannnot judge the authenticiy of the quran just because some manuscripts were found. You judge by the content in the scripture. You sole discussion has been meaningless as you have tried to prove the authenticity of the bible plainly by what people have found and not what the bible teaches.

Now to the bible. Before i start looking at the authenticity of the bible, i want to first start looking at what the present chrisianity follows and what jesus actually teaches using the bible itself.

1. Present chrsitanity teaches the jesus is son of god and that he is part of the trinity. But the problem is that nowhere in the bible is TRINITY mentioned and no where in the bible does it say that jesus he himself stated that he is the son of god. Now you marie together with jonc have said that jesus spoke in parable. This is total backward thinking for if someone was to deliver a message he would say it straight.

But anyway lets see the texts that jesus said to disprove the claim that jesus is god or son of god.

Jesus answered, “My teaching IS NOT MY OWN. It comes from him WHO SENT ME.” (John 7:16)

You are determined to kill me, a MAN who has told you the truth that I heard from God” (John 8:41).

… he (Jesus) said to them, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.” … Going a little farther, he FELL WITH HIS FACE TO THE GROUND AND PRAYED … (Matthew 26:36,39)

By myself I CAN DO NOTHING … (John 5:30)

NO-ONE KNOWS ABOUT THAT DAY OR HOUR, not even the angels in heaven, NOR THE SON, but only the Father. (Matthew 24:36)

Jesus said, “… I am returning to my Father and your Father, to MY GOD AND YOUR GOD.” (John 20:17)

Now marie doesnt this indicate to you that jesus belived in a higher supreme whereby he associated no partners. Just look at the 2nd verse i quote. He is calling himself a man and that he is getting instructions from god.

And why would he pray, surely if he is god there is no need for him to pray.

Why would he say that byhimself he can do nothing

And finally why would he say TO MY GOD AND YOUR GOD. This clearly indicates to me that he worships the same god as every other one of his followers.

Now the clear message that jesus brought to this world which is

Matthew 5;17″Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This is his clear message that all the laws of the old testament should be followed. That means all the rape, killings and other disgusting acts of the old testament should be followed as it is a law of the old testament. And if you look in mathhew 5:19 that ifthese laws are broken than they will be called least in the kingdom of heaven

So MARIE my question to you to disprove the religion you follow is that

1. Jesus never ever claimed divinity, never ever mentioned that he should be worshipped, never acted like god, never taught his follows to worship him but god, clearly said no images of god should be made, than why do you worship him and bow down to him when he bowed down to god.

I will continue with the rest later, just answer this and about the prophecy of jonah. GOOD LUCK
85.
IslamTheTrueReligion
July 28, 2009 • 1:08 am

R_not,

Allahu-Akbar! See all your posts, you are the one bashing & accusing again and again, not me and other muslims here. I thought your gospels teach you to love and not judge but read your own posts and I quote:

“It seems that there will be a lot of muslim women, and muslim men, there too since none of them know if #1. allah told them the truth since it was nothing but the ‘greatest of deceivers’, or #2. none of them know what it really takes to be saved and it was all conveniently based on mohammed’s needs and greeds… and lusts… and I suppose we could list all the other 7 deadly sins since mohammed broke not only them, but all the 10 commandments too! And we all remember what their mysogynist prophet thought about women – most of them will be in hell. (I wonder where they are going to get their virgins from – I guess they will just have to settle for all those little boys that are supposed to be for their use instead).”

Compare how you are saved in Christianity – - Accept Jesus Christ as son of God, Your Lord and Saviour. Through his flesh and blood, you will be saved and live forever. This means you are not accountable for your own actions and deeds because Jesus Christ (a.s.), son of Mary, after all will be responsible for what you have done. A Christian will live in heaven forever without the punishment of the bad action or bad deed that the Christian commits in his life.

I’d better follow Islam that teaches you are responsible for your own actions and deeds, nobody else. This is the reason God created Heaven and Hell so that one who commits the unlawful actions (or commands that Allah said do not do) like the muslim terrorists will be punished severely in hell before they can go to heaven. But since muslims have the faith in Allah, eventually, will live forever in heaven.

This is my third time to participate in a discussion like this on the internet. The first time was on beliefnet website. There was one lady from USA who went to buddhism, hinduism and finally became a born again Christian but was still not satisfied. My answers made sense to her that she declared the Shahadah.

It is the responsiblity and accountability thing that the lady was confused and was not sold out in Christianity. I said unlawful actions like killing, etc… have severe punishment in hell. Its more severe than the punishment here on earth.

I am not relating it so that you also accept Islam. I am relating it why Islam made sense to me – - The Worship of ONe God as He is the Creator Of All That Exists. All creations, whether we see them or not, function under the Commands of One God. The difference between other creations and us, human beings, are that human beings can choose to accept or reject His Commands while others creations don’t have the will to choose, they just obey without question His Commands. Thus, human beings have heaven and hell so that those who follow His Commands have heaven and for those who don’t follow His Commands will have hell. While other creations because they don’t have the will to choose, they don’t have heaven and hell.
86.
ibnsahr
July 28, 2009 • 1:15 am

SRIZAL

forget about palestine, they just nothing but rats, Inhabit someone else land, when the occupant get kicked out, Palestine is from the sea and only settled in gaza, its their right to claim it back (hope I’m not wrong), don’t worry about other beliefs, cause their script didn’t teach them to attacked people who don’t believe to their belief, islam is number one enemy of humanity. your allah is the pimp
87.
Claude
July 28, 2009 • 1:26 am

“Please find me information in islam from the quran where it says that non-muslims should be degraded.”

LS, this one is not bad :

Q : 40,70 : ” Those who reject the Book and the (revelation) with which we sent our messengers : but soon shall they know When the yokes (shall be round their necks, and the chains ; they shall be dragged along In the boiling fetid fluid; then in the fire shall they be burned….

This Quran is so full of wisdom, beauty, kindness, sensibility, love, fraternity, finenesses, we are never wearied to read it. We really feel we are in the neighbourhood of God. Quran is really an inimitable Book. A real miracle of God.

London Spirit ! I did not know you were a Taliban. Congradulations !
88.
IslamTheTrueReligion
July 28, 2009 • 2:36 am

R_not said: And muslims are in a tizzy because the internet has opened islam’s pandora box to the world and they are trying to use their usual tactics of bullying, but even that doesn’t work. Then they try the often used deception, or taqiyya/kithman. And fortunately, that doesn’t work since it all goes back to that thin veneer. And when all of the above doesn’t work – bash, go back to bullying (lawsuits, etc).

It is through the internet that followers of different religions accept Islam more and more.

One day you might wake up and realize that you should have probably just gone to a different Church if you didn’t get your needs fulfilled with the Church you were at. The weakness in islam isn’t that it sees others as being weak, the weakness in islam is that it is just false, and wrong.

More priests and preachers of Christianity accept Islam than ever. You can google them if you’re interested.

Muslims are immune on bashing, hating, lying of the likes of you and others. I knew because from the country I came, I did not hear about Islam. What I heard was that muslims are cheaters, traitors, have 4 wives, all the bad stuff but not the word Islam as religion of muslims. I only knew Islam when my friends from france (take note, the whole family accepted Islam from Christianity) told me about it. Since I was devoted Catholic Christian, everytime I opened up the Bible, I asked and prayed hard to Jesus Christ to give me the truth and show me the light. Just there in front of the Bible, there are many proofs to submit to God alone and no others.

Alhamdulillah (Praise Be To Allah), Allah (s.w.t.) made me muslim. I am so fortunate and very thankful to Allah (s.w.t) for giving me back my natural religion because many muslims (those who are born to muslim family already) don’t value and don’t realize how lucky they are for having such religion and also because since beginning of Islam, haters, mockers, liars like you & some people here on this site, and other related sites and off the internet world as well always want to find means on bashing, attacking, accusing against Islam and muslims which can have doubts to some people like what my relatives thought.

As Allah (s.w.t.) said to Shaytan when Shaytan asked Allah (s.w.t.) to give him power to misquide people so that Shaytan has companions on hell because after all, Allah (s.w.t) will rot him to hell anyway. So, Allah (s.w.t.) said, OK, I’ll give you the power. For those who want to follow you, you will rot with them. But for those who want to follow Allah (s.w.t), are the people of Allah (s.w.t.).

Anyway, nice chatting with you. I’d better put up a website inshaAllah and my responses here will be articles for my site.

Thanks for reading my post.
89.
R_not
July 28, 2009 • 2:38 am

srizals wrote: ‘You are not focusing on Islam itself and fond of playing that hate card, dehumanizing Prophet Muhammad as an answer of your chosen ways, be it Atheist, Christians, Ex Muslims etc. etc. but you are too afraid to explain your worldviews regarding all the issues faced by humanity for example, the butchering of the Palestinian, both Muslims and Christians by the illegal state Israel.’

MY RESPONSE: Oh, we are focusing on islam alright – the quran is islam. Its teachings, and the poor behavior of its prophet, are all about islam. Why don’t you do some reading of it and then come back and join us. While we tell the truth about what mohammed did AFTER he thought up islam – he not only dehumanized people by calling them apes and pigs, lower than dirt and urine, but tortured/killed/raped/enslaved/had assasinated humans. I don’t have to call mohammed a name since he did that all by his little self. And then committed shirk more times than I can count from the islamic texts.

Why should we explain our worldviews? The article doesn’t call for that. There is nothing illegal about Israel. The Jews not only lived in that area for millenia before muslims, but also in other areas such as Arabia, that now ban Jews, and all over the Middle East. As the muslims are persecuting Christians so they are persecuting Jews and others in the Middle to this day – and you worry about us having a worldview.

Why is it that the Jews, and Christians, and others are supposed to live and let live with muslims, but the Muslims cannot do the same? Israel should not give one inch back to any muslim. While Jordan took more than half of what was given to the Jews as Israel, not one peep is made out of people like you or the muslims and Jordan kicked out those Palestinian Arabs because of their poor behavior.

and we see Muslims doing a power play/land grab in the Philippines, India, Africa, and even in europe and the UK. I do believe France is getting sick and tired of the ‘700 sensitive urban areas’ that muslims occupy due to the high crime rates against non-muslims.

While the Muslims – Hamas from the South, and Hezbollah from Lebanon – lob bombs into Israel on a daily basis you ignore that until the Isrealis get sick and tired of it and try to stop it and protect their people. And how come no hoopla from you types over the fence that Egypt put up – a fellow muslim country – to keep out the Pals? Or that Egypt, or any other muslim country, didn’t do one thing to help the pals? Or that not one peep is made out of all of these muslims using chidren as suicide bombers, a place to hide behind and then when they die because the muslims do this then they parade the dead bodies of these children around wailing and whining and using them as propaganda.

As a person coming from a country succombing to islam (the UK) – I guess it probably is easier on you to accept dhimmitude and to be their apologists than to do anything about protecting your own society. heck if you had to read and find out the truth that might mean you might have to do something.

ITTR wrote: ‘I thought your gospels teach you to love and not judge but read your own posts and I quote:’

And another tactic used by muslims to deflect onto a different subject… roll eyes… tell us how bad of a Christian, or whatever, we are. ho hum – another day in the life of deflection and excuses.

Your texts told me that allah was the greatest of deceivers, as was mohammed. Your texts told me that mohammed hated women so much it was ok to beat them, enslave/rape them, and tell them they are abundant in hell. It was your texts that told me that mohammed enslaved little children and also used them for their sexual desires – and then it is the Middle East Muslims (some of whom have been caught and now sit in USA jails) who are still enslaving and abusing these people in all ways. Most of these slaves are gotten from Africa, they also get some from other areas.

History has taught me that islam has left death and destruction, and eventual decay, behind them in their imperialistic conquests. No matter how much muslims twist history – they can’t change the facts. But they do tell us every time they try to twist history they are following Stalin, and Hitler’s, advice: ‘tell a lie often enough and it will become the truth’. Sorry – I prefer not to listen to those types concerning the truth and only for battle tactics and other strategies against others.

That lady you are talking about obviously didn’t read the koran, or islamic history, and just took your words for it and we have read the words that leave out the vile stuff and only include the abrogated stuff and other stuff just to entice people while the truth of islam. None of that means that your scales are balanced though especially since allah is the greatest of deceivers. Sort of reminds me of Lucifer – the ‘Prince of Lies’.

Matthew 4: 8-10, “Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them, and saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, ‘Get thee hence, Satan; for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”

The Evil One offers Jesus absolute temporal power, imperium, IF he will ‘fall down and worship me [the Adversary]‘. Jesus says No. Mohammed, on the other hand, essentially says Yes! Right on! and Mohammedans have been grovelling before the Evil One, the Adversary, ever since, selling their souls as slaves of allah, in order to obtain worldly power.

2 Cor 11
14 There is nothing astonishing in this; even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
90.
Marie
July 28, 2009 • 3:34 am

londonspirit:

You cannot win MARIE, how hard you try. Like i said before and i am saying again every year new hsitorical findings are being discovered. Please dont respond and say well it hasnt been found yet. And you mention about hylogriphics. Hylogrphics dont tell everything ok. Every year sand is uncovering new terrain and new hidden things.

I say:

londonspirit there were no crosses in those days. Crucifixion was first practiced by the Persians, Seluecids, and the Romans. The Romans borrowed crucifixion some 1700 years after Pharaoh.

The only form of punishment the Egyptians used at the time was impalement.

Lets take a look at the difference between impalement and crucifxion:

The Egyptians executed people by impaling a pointed stake [or tp-ht in hieroglyphs] through the victim. Centuries later, the Romans executed people by fastening the victim to a cross with rope or nails, and they called this crucifixion. Simply put, crucifixion defines a method of execution used by the Romans and the techniques of impalement used by the ancient Egyptians cannot properly be referred to as crucifixion.

Impalement is usually defined as “an act of torture execution whereby the victim is pierced by a long stake. Driving nails through the hands and feet of a victim, while fastening him to a cross, could be considered a form of “multiple micro impalements associated with crucifixion, however in cases where the victim is fastened to the cross with ropes there is no impalement at all. Crucifixion and impalement are not the same and these terms are not synonymous.

Moreover Surahs 38:12 and 89:6-12, prove the Egyptians used impalement as a form of punishment in stead of crucifixion because in these verses the pharaoh is called Lord of the Stakes.

A stake is not a cross, although crucifixion may be considered as a form of impalement when nails are used, all forms of impalement do not qualify as crucifixion because with impalement a stake is driven through a person. In crucifixion the person is nailed and hung a cross shaped pole.

londonspirit:

Secondly to three days and three nights. My god are you stupid. Even if what you say that they didnt encounter 24 hour clocks it dont make no difference. because they still used sun rise and sunset for day and night. So still it cannot be three days and three nights. Stop trying to answer something that even einstein cant answer.

I say:

I just double checked my sources and scholars say according to early Jewish time reckoning any part of a day was counted as a full day. Jesus was in the tomb Friday afternoon, all day saturday, and on sunday morning. Under Jewish time conception back then, this would have counted as three days.

londonspirit:

ANSWER: your answering using proved knowledge but by what you feel like answering. Because according to your bible, when mary magdelen went inside the tomb on sunday she found that the tomb door had been opened and that the sheets have been uncovered. Now do you think he died.lol.

I say:

londonspirit Jesus’s death was confirmed when the Roman soldier thrust a spear into his rightside between the ribs. The spear apparently went through the right lung and into the heart and when it was pulled out, some fluid, the pericardial effusion and pleural effusion came out. This would have an appearance of clear fluid like water followed by a large valume of blood. This description is consistent with what modern medicine would have expected to happen. This is significant because polemic shock would have caused a sustained rapid heart rate that would have contributed to heart failure, resulting in the collection of fluid in the membrane around the heart which is pericardial effusion as well as around the lungs which is called pleural effusion.

Also if Jesus did live how would he walk around with nails driven through his feet?

There is no way Jesus could have just walked out of his tomb because it was tightly secured. Based on first century sites his tomb would have had a slanted groove that led down to a low entrance and a large disk shaped stone was rolled down this groove and lodged into the place across the door. A smaller stone was used to secure the disk. Although it was easy to roll this bid disk down the groove, it took several men to role it back up in order to reopen the tomb. Plus Jesus’s tomb was also guarded

Besides how could Jesus move the stone with nails in his hands?

londonspirit:

And by the way when people are put up on the cross it is not meant for instant death. It is meant for a slow tortue. Many people used to get crucified for upto a few days and still remain alive.

I say:

Many scholars consider crucifixion as form of capital punishment.

londonspirit:

And according to jesus prophcy of jonah, he had to be alive in the belly of the earth for the prophecy and miracle to be fulfilled. So if you say he died than the prophecy isnt fulfilled.

I say:

Jesus’s physical body died, but his soul lived for three days in hell and the soul is the breath of life.

londonspirit:

. now lets look at the authenticity of the bible in proper context. You cannnot judge the authenticiy of the bible just becuase some tablets were found, likewise you cannnot judge the authenticiy of the quran just because some manuscripts were found. You judge by the content in the scripture. You sole discussion has been meaningless as you have tried to prove the authenticity of the bible plainly by what people have found and not what the bible teaches.

I say:

londonspirit there are thousands upon thousands of archaelogical discoveries that support the Bible. Those tablets I cited are just a small example. Moreover those archaeological discoveries refute the Quran’s accusation that the Bible is corrupt. How can the Bible be corrupt when there are thousands upon thousands of archaeological evidence that support the Bible ( this includes what the Bible teaches )?

londonspirit:

Now to the bible. Before i start looking at the authenticity of the bible, i want to first start looking at what the present chrisianity follows and what jesus actually teaches using the bible itself.

I say:

WE ARE NOT MOVING ON UNTIL YOU RESPOND TO THE REST OF MY ACCUSATIONS!
91.
R_not
July 28, 2009 • 3:57 am

What we all forget is that secular people of Jesus’ time also wrote of His crucifixion, those who had no vested interest in it at all. They also wrote of His Resurrection.

Jesus’ crucifixion was written about by not only his prophets, but also includes Josephus (37-97AD) a Jewish historian who was ordered by Pontius Pilate to record the crucifixion of Jesus. He also mentions Jesus appearing to the apostles on the 3rd day.

Lucien, a Greek satirist (120-180AD) was a critic of the Christians and Christ; and Tacitus (55-117AD) who was a great historian of Rome both wrote about the Crucifixian of Jesus.

The following passage appears in the Greek version of Antiquities of the Jews 18.63-64, in the translation of William Whiston:
Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

And then we have mohammed who was born centuries after Jesus, denying it all who wasn’t even a Christian or a Jew, and was claimed to be illiterate which is one explanation for his screwing up the Bible stories that he probably either heard about. He was a Hanif pagan of a religion that worshipped a pantheon of gods and goddesses, of which allah was the main god, a moon god. Three of the goddesses that mohammed almost kept in islam are even mentioned in the koran, al-lat, al-uzza, and manat. And mohammed’s father was named ABD-ALLAH, Abdallah, which means ’servant of allah’. Which tells us that allah was indeed a god of their pagan religion because mohammed’s father died before mohammed was even born.

And the kabaa, the black stone, all the rites associated with that are all of mohammed’s pagan religion. He took the statues that were in and around it and broke them though and just made allah the one and only god thereafter. And one difference between the rites of the Hanifs and the rites of the muslims are that the Hanifs would go around the kabaa, naked. The muslims wear a white dress, or tunic, or whatever they call it. I have read that they are naked underneath that dress, I do not know (and don’t care). But they still worship the black stone that looks like a woman’s vagina, throw stones at Satan, spit, snort, run around the kabaa and then run to another black stone. No Jewish or Christian ever did that.

And mohammed made allah more into himself as the years passed, and used that god to excuse his atrocious deeds that we are all familiar with and that the muslims either excuse away, deny or complain to us that we are bashing mohammed.

Most muslims don’t even know their own history, or even know their own koran since they memorize it in Arabic which for the majority of people worldwide – it is not their language. Ironic that a god would also quote something that would be so important to an illiterate guy too. Or let the goats eat the leaves that it was written on, or let a guy named Uthman destroy the original which makes it impossible to even know what Uthman did to the koran.
92.
ibnsahr
July 28, 2009 • 4:08 am

I think srizal came from Malaysia, normaly typical ignorant and malnutrition muslim, cause by corruption in the government that makes them moron, good he found this site so he can learn more about the disgust of islam
93.
srizals
July 28, 2009 • 4:40 am

according to whom?
I’m quite busy teaching n stuffs, but don’t stop, I’ll get back 2 all of u afterwards. Love to read from u guys. R Not stupid now are we. Thanks for reading n responding 2 my comments. Hope u will be able 2 read from me 2. I survived u, hope u can survived me. 11.38 in the morning, in this beautiful land of the Malays. ibnshr don’t u chicken out on me after this. Hang on tight. I’m comin 4 u after this. Love u, your stupidity I mean.
94.
srizals
July 28, 2009 • 4:53 am

Be4 I go back to my classroom, ermm, anyone watched the passion of Christ? Is it Mel’s interpretation of the events that happened or just typical Christians views? What happened to the guards that tortured the son of god?

U said jesus had to bear the wrath of god on the cross, (for eh, blood thirsty sex lunatic drunkard Christians, well not all of them) but.. I don’t see any god torturing him, were those crazy torturers sick laughing dogs were god himself, or gods himself or er.. themselves er.. two in one torturing another one, err, gosh, I never got your trinity concepts, mind my puny malnutrition mind, eh ibnsahr. Yeah I do come from Malaysia. We are located in Somalia next to the south pole. Geez,, idioto..non comprehende eh, luno
95.
R_not
July 28, 2009 • 4:57 am

ibnsahr, ironic – why should a guy from Malaysia care about Israel? Other than knowing the true facts of all of it which they are obviously not getting, I can’t figure out why a Malaysian would hate Jews. … unless they are told to hate them from someone, from a cleric.

The clerics are the main source of many people’s problems. They are what I call the ‘officers’ over the umma. They lead the way in this hatred, in this pitting up people against each other.

I would bet that when muslim immigration first started in Malaysia, it was like it was everywhere – seemingly peaceful. Not too much notice was given to it. Then the Muslim’s numbers started increasing, the demands started, the violence started, the whining and wailing that they are the victims, the promises that the solution is to implant sharia laws into their government, laws, and then the cycle continues until they were overrun by islam.

I did a search of ‘malaysia’ on jihadwatch.org and found a lot of hits of what I am talking about. And there is a book that when the muslim population reaches a certain point, it is very common to have specific things start to happen. It is actually easily put into numbers too.

Malaysia is in this category:

Chad 53.1%, Lebanon 60.0%, Malaysia 60.4%: EMPHASIS ON GAINING POLITICAL POWER & IMPOSING SHARIA LAW, 60%+, There is unfettered persecution of unbelievers and non-conforming Muslims. There is genocide, the use of Sharia law as a weapon, and jizya the infidel tax.

The next category it will soon fall into is this one, when it goes to about 70%, the emphasis will be on violent militias and ethnic cleansing. In fact, they might be there, at least in the beginning stages, of that already. I don’t know.

There is also an article about this here so you don’t have to buy the book:
http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=4DE15EF9-A76C-4DD4-81E2-75683AEED74D
96.
R_not
July 28, 2009 • 5:11 am

srizals, I love it when a muslim calls me names – it shows I am hitting a chord and I am on the right path. Thanks.

And as for your day starting, mine is ending. I am going to logoff for now.

Yes, I watched the Passion of Christ. It has been about a year since I saw it.

I have no idea what happened to the guards that tortured Jesus. One Centurian and his men, admitted that Jesus was God. (Matt 27: 54) I am not God (or put myself up there with God like mohammed, and the muslims, do so often) and judge them. I don’t judge the Jews, or anyone, since the way I see it – we all put Him up there on that cross. They might have asked for forgiveness at the very end. Jesus forgave all of them on the Cross. While Jesus died forgiving his persecutors – mohammed died cursing people, including his own uncle who raised him from a little boy and gave him food and clothing and shelter.

That is the difference between your mohammed and Jesus.
97.
srizals
July 28, 2009 • 6:53 am

Sweet dreams, R Not that oblivious. I’ll catch u later. Had to make a one hour and a half trip to the nature with the boys n girls under the hot sun and fresh smelling rain forest and creatures of Darwinist cousins. I’m not a cousin of a monkey ok, only Darwinist. Keep em comin, keep em comin.

Oh, the Indians of the plains, no not the deluded painted forehead Indians that like to burn alive weeping widows n live on dowry from women, no, not those cowards. I mean the red Indian of the mighty plains, well before the white Atheist n Christians built USA on their genocide and the buffaloes too.

Ok, anyhow, when they encountered slaughtered babies, children, women and the old ones in a totally wiped out villages of their own. The Indians who called themselves the human beings said “Let teach these cowards a lesson”. Well, for them killer of babies and helpless women and children and grandmas are coward, like today’s Atheist and white Christians cowards, even though not all of them. I’m referring specifically to u, the baby killers, bikers on Harley, drinking and laughing while watching their strongest armies decimated the helpless trapped Gazan, in Gaza, the largest encampment rival the death camps of the Christian Germans in Europe. Well, the Zionist Jews are a bunch of moron who like to take it not with someone their size, no, they had no balls! They trembled with the thought of death. Look at their Berlin fascist walls encircling Palestinian land.

Yeah, yeah, we Muslims got to die, when you got your god given right to thrive on our blood and suffering. Well thanks to the weapon supplier of the Zionist, Uncle Sam.
Well, back to my story, for the human beings teaching these cowards means that they are going to fight them with harmless stick and hit the cowards head or something like that to shame them, to show them that the human beings didn’t need deadly weapon of mass destruction to fight them. Well, the rest is history.

I am a human being. And I am going to teach you cowards a lesson. And I’m not going to beat you with a stick. I’m going to hit you with all the truth and exposed you to yourself, so that you know what a blind liar you are. For the terrorists, I don’t think they are going to hit you with some stick too. Well, thanks to your hideous scientific ways, you have followers of hate, following your terrorizing steps and ways. Well might is right? right? Well, guess who had joined the club, bozoss…But I really hope they stopped their ways of following your hideous ways. They have shamed themselves for killing the innocents.

Go fight of your battle among the braves, among soldiers with weapons and annihilate one another. Leave the civilians behind. You have bombs and weapons right, go fight and face the slayer. Died with dignity with your blood and brains splattered all over your glory uniform. Don’t bathe in the blood of the innocents. Leave us out of it. You have shamed yourself. What would you say in front of our teacher, Prophet Muhammad that had forbidden Muslims brave from killing babies, children, women, men in temples and churches and behind locked doors. What? This is the first time you read and know about the rules of engagement in the battlefield by Muslims? No, not the Geneva Convention. Its uttered 1,400 years ago by an illiterate, dweller of the desert. A teacher of all teachers. Nabi Muhammad s.a.w. mercy for all mankind. Teacher of all mankind. Warner to all mankind.

Of course, if you, the coward killers of the weak, looters of the wealth of civilizations and Commonwealth countries cannot accept this truth. Well, its going to expose just how hideous you truly are. Shame on you.
98.
ibnsahr
July 28, 2009 • 7:22 am

srizals

You talking gibberish, why don’t we talk serious, why suicide bomber always muslim?
99.
R_not
July 28, 2009 • 7:29 am

srizals, go check on your own history in islam.

Here if you want to stop thinking about death and carnage which must be hard to do, I understand. Since you are unable to divide governments and religion into separate things, I will do it for you.

I posted this earlier:
(Matthew 5:1-12)
Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, and he began to teach them, saying:
“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”

And your grasp on history that happened ages ago isn’t even all that accurate. And you call me names.

For one thing, you think that calling me names is going to get you somewhere fast? Does that mean you think your scales are balanced for the day by calling me names? What does that prove in the end?

If you don’t know your islamic texts, why do you bash me when I show them to you? Does it help to ignore mohammed’s atrocities and instead bash me who doesn’t wish you dead, or even hurt. While it is not true with mohammed and his teachings.

You go and read your koran, what is left of it after the goats ate parts of it and Uthman made a copy of it and never knowing really what Uthman didn’t include in it because he destroyed the original. A god that let goats eat part of it, and the original get destroyed doesn’t sound too much like a stable god to me that cared too much about its message.

But, I do realize that you would be in danger, or austracized, if you thought any differently.
100.
R_not
July 28, 2009 • 7:39 am

ibnsahr, I feel sorry for the guy. When they have nothing else they bring up that sort of rubbish, and they bash and call people names. It only reflects on them. We can all witness the makings of a decline of a society as they grasp islam.
101.
Arpheel
July 28, 2009 • 9:04 am

HIye Islam the true religion

a muslim shall be ashamed of calling any one to Islam cox there is also something by the name of Hypocrisy in this world

Dont you know under sharia laws , muslims are supposed to kill apostates because that is what Mohammed did. Ask any knowledgable muslim he will confirm it. 4.89 has backing from hadiths and history that is why it is part of sharia. You may say what you want but I come with evidence. Here are some hadiths:

Bukhari:V4B52N260 “The Prophet said, ‘If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.’”

Ishaq:550 “. The reason that Allah’s Messenger ordered Andullash Bin Sad slain was because he had become a Muslim and used to write down Qur’an Revelation. Then he apostatized (rejected islam) after becoming suspicious of some verses which prophet changed after his suggestions.

Ishaq:551 The Messenger ordered Miqyas’ assassination because he became a renegade by rejecting Islam.”

Bukhari, 5-59-632 Once Muadh paid a visit to Abu Musa and saw a chained man. Muadh asked, “What is this?” Abu Musa said, “(He was) a Jew who embraced Islam and has now turned apostate.” Muadh said, “I will surely chop off his neck!”

Bukhari Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17:

Narrated ‘Abdullah:

Allah’s Apostle said, “The blood of a Muslim cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and

leaves the Muslims.”

BukhariVolume 1, Book 11, Number 626:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, “No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr and the ‘Isha’ prayers and if they knew the reward for these prayers at their respective times, they would certainly present themselves (in the mosques) even if they had to c awl.” The Prophet added, “Certainly I decided to order the Mu’adh-dhin (call-maker) to pronounce Iqama and order a man to lead the prayer and then take a fire flame to burn all those who had not left their houses so far for the prayer along with their houses.”

while there is nothing like that in Christianity you are free to make you’r choice may be just after a church service and you can go to Mulla say hey i want to become Muslim and say my shahda but then you’r obliged to get a sword in you’r hand start looking for an apostate

Islam a true religion think again before saying this i belong from a muslim state and we were obliged to read quaran and about Mohammad before we shall know about our own religion
moon god of yesterday become a monesthetic God of today

Mohammed in the last 13 years of his life was involvoved in 75 + raids since he earned his living through looting and robberries by r unanounced raids on trade caravans and peaceful communities .He also carried their women and distributed among themselves, Mohammed getting 20 % of all booty including captured women, and raped them. There were only three cases where Mecca people organized and challenged Mohammed because he was raiding their caravans, Badar, Uhad and Trench . Thus all his conflicts were offensive . Please do not try to pull wool over reader’s eyes . Mohammed was only meek and defensive in Mecca where he had few followers . All Meccan ayas are very comprising. When in Madina Mohammed (aka Allah) allowed robbery as livlihood (booty) and sex with captured women as halal, arabs started joing him and converting in droves. Of course many were in it for booty and captured women. To those Mohammed (Allah) referred as hippocrites and wanted them killed. Read these hadiths:

BukhareeVolume 5, Book 59, Number 512:

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet offered the Fajr Prayer near Khaibar when it was still dark and then said, “Allahu-Akbar! Khaibar is destroyed, for whenever we approach a nation ( to raid), then evil will be the morning for those who have been warned.” Then the inhabitants of Khaibar came out running on the roads. The Prophet had their men killed, their offspring and woman taken as captives. Safiya was amongst the captives, She first came in the share of Dahya Alkali but later on she belonged to the Prophet .

Bukhari yol 3,Book46, No. 717

“Narrated Ibn Aun:
Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives; the Prophet got Juwairiya on that day.

“Sirat e Rasulullah” by Ishaq, pge 464

After 800-900 male adults of Bani Quraiza were beheaded in batches, and thrown in trenches dug in Madina, the apostle divided their property, wives and children as booty. . He took Rayhana d. Amr b. Khunafa for himself.

Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 447:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

Sad said, “Kill their men and take their women and children as captives, “On that the Prophet said, “You have judged according to Allah’s Judgment,”

Prophet took Rehana as his share of the booty.

(Ref: Waqqidi, Tabari)

A fifth of the booty was, as usual, reserved for the Prophet, and the rest divided. From the fifth Mahomet MADE CERTAIN PRESENTS TO HIS FRIENDS OF FEMALE CAPTIVES AND CHILDREN. (Ref Waqqidi, Tabari, and Ishaq)

Mahomet had part of his share of enslaved women and children from Quraiza sent and sold to the Bedouin tribes of Najd , in exchange for horses and arms.

The History of Tabari, vol 8, pge 29-30

From his share of captive women, prophet gave his son-in-law, Ali a slave girl, Raytah bt Hilal to enjoy her at his will. He also presented Uthman b. Affan, his son-in-law, another slave girl Zainab b. Hayan, and bestowed another girl (name unknown) to his father in-law Omar Ibn Khattab. Omar gave that girl to his son Abdullah. Most of Prophet’s other elite companions received slave girls.
102.
ibnsahr
July 28, 2009 • 10:16 am

R_not

we should feel sorry for the muslim even pray for them if you want, for what they not knowing.if you believe god is almaighty, he could get satan to insert some of verses into quran just to show how ironic it sounds, “they see but they don’t understand”, “some people have been lead astray by god, and never found the light”.
They see all these murder and mass murder but they dont understand, taking one’s life is god’s privilege, so if the creator prescribe you to killing, even killing is not your liking, like written in one surah, than you have been conned by allah aka satan

srizals, hope you not maddrasa teacher, all those stupid students in front of you is depend on what you told them, you told them jew is enemy, they will take it along their life, tell them killing is no no, so may be next time they start realise QURAN IS A HOAX
103.
londonspirit
July 28, 2009 • 12:14 pm

i am sorry marie but u really are pathetic. I just told you i have to research further into history to answer the remainin 3 accusations as i have no knowledge of this part of history an i aint gonna give an answer that is based on my opinion like you do. firstly you have now given 3 opinions in regards to the miracle of jonah. Ur answer is changing everytime. What does that tell me an the rest of the readers. It tells me your speaking nonsense or just tryin to protect an prove somethin that can not be proved. Now your saying that keys thought part of a day as a full day. But i ask you than why would the bible say 3 days an 3 nights. Clearly that means not part of a day but 3 full days. You can not say friday evening an sunday morning is 3 full days. Jesus could have been out of the tomb by saturday night. No one knows.. Look anyway why did jesus say in th bible 3 days an 3 nights if keys at those days regarded part of a day as a full day. Surely jesus would have made it easier for himself by just saying 3 days. This is just one of the many flaws in the bible. Your finding it hard just to answer this question. What happens when i present to you more an more. An answer my question to you about dis claiming divinity. Sure would love to hear ur response,
104.
londonspirit
July 28, 2009 • 12:40 pm

arpheel instead of tellin other people to read the quran you should actually read it yourself. Or u can read the debate of me an ibn kammuna on death of apostasy in islam. Whereby i completely thrashed him using the quran. That all he had to say to me without any rebuttal of my answers that i am lost. Let me tell you there is not a single verse in the quran where it says to kill apostates. I suggest u read verse 4:89 an the verses above an below it. It is only sayin to kill to who you encounter at war thats has treasoned against you. An let those hypocrites who dont fight you in peace. Get your facts straight mate
105.
srizals
July 28, 2009 • 12:55 pm

R not that insensitive,
Sorry guy, maam, err..whatever you r not, My apologies. Nice reading from u, but again, got to go back to my life. Keep firing guys.. be sure to duck my bullets… afterwards…Something for u guys to ponder on. Who was Goliath that David slew at Ain Jalut. No, not the monguls, they were slew by the mighty Egyptian armies, while the brave crusaders tuck in the safety of their walls, praying muslims would be victorious against the dreaded monguls that would surely butchered them. Shame on them. 8:00 pm in the land of the Malays. I wonder what is the time at your place r not easily offended. Sorry. R_not, this is my last posting since u guys have shown what a hideous liar I am. I am ashamed. Bye….

No..I’m just joking. I sure my friend Sydneysider would not think I’m not that funny too.
106.
londonspirit
July 28, 2009 • 1:10 pm

sorry its not keys its jews
107.
Arpheel
July 28, 2009 • 1:12 pm

London Spirit

well i had alot of dialogues with my Muslim friends its common then can deny anything if they find them self in a trouble there must be some westerners who can be deceived but not us who are grown and brought up in Muslim society we know what Islam is and we know when its in majority how it reacts or ordain well do read my above comment that i gave Islam is nothing then a politcal organization

i not only gave u a sura but plenty of haddith hope u might not deny them

thanks for your time
kind Regards
108.
londonspirit
July 28, 2009 • 2:04 pm

arpheel like i said why dont you read the verse. It dont matter if ur livin in a muslim country or not. The fact that remains is tat alot of these 3rd world countries are corrupt an they only do things to suit their own needs an desires. You stated some hadiths. How do we know they are true. There is no way of scientifically saying that these are true. So you have to look at the script that muslims believe to be the word of god which is the quran. An in the quran there is noting tat states to kill apostates. Rather it says not to kill innocent. An even in a war not to kill the woman an children an elderly unless they attack you. So now the hadiths You state are contradicting the verses of the quran so via this i can say that there hadiths are not sahih
109.
srizals
July 28, 2009 • 2:32 pm

R_not, which society are you referring to? The homosexuals? The drunkard? The worshippers of sex? The eaters of the eaters of garbage and shits? ?The slayers of babies, children, women and old ones with fancy white phosphorus bombs? The money worshipers n got ripped of by a Jew named Madoff?

?? be specific plz.

I like to share a story with you.

The Egyptian Coptic went on a rampage in Egypt recently because the authority over there decided to exterminate all the pigs there in fear of a swine flu outbreak. The Coptics said it was their livelihood and the pigs played a very important events of eating the garbage of Egypt, the used spoilt baby pampers, vomits, pet’s pooh, other vile stuff, etc. etc… U see, they kept their pigs in garbage dumps. Where the pigs are free to forage for their food.

The Coptic are Christians. Can you help me out here R_not?

Why do Christians love to eat an animal that was forbidden for them to eat in the first place in the gospel?
Why do Jews love to eat interest of money loans when they were forbidden to do so in their Torah?
Why do Atheist became Atheist when they believe in absolutely nothing?
Why don’t they just have pun, porn, party n puke n stop pissin off Muslims?

Go to this site, God on trial, they said they found a new gospel, older than the gospels owned by the saints you ever knew.
Erm… this would be interesting..out of 1,500 manuscripts of gospels with none of the two are identical, n now this!

Got to make some milk for my baby.
Out of curiosity, beg your pardon to ask you this, Hmm…

R_not, R you a man? or R u a woman? R u a Christian?
Which church do you belong to?

Sorry if I offended you earlier on. I would called names on my own name, to make it up to you.

srizals the defender of lies and treachery. Just came out of the box, absolutely oblivious of his surroundings, and had a very limited reading n understanding. Catchy eh?
110.
srizals
July 28, 2009 • 2:50 pm

My comments waiting moderation, eh,
Hmm I gotta save my comments afterwards n post it somewhere else, just in case it got disappear like in danielpipes n the rest of the websites of erm… ‘the nothing but the truth sites exposing the lies of the Koran, but eh, we didn’t really read it, coz eh, we started to feel ashamed of ourselves n WE GOING to expose the lies of Hitler, bush, blair, aaron sharon, netanyahu..opss..
111.
Claude
July 28, 2009 • 4:30 pm

IslamTheTrueReligion

“He will kill DAJJAL (the Anti-Christ) and establish Islam in the whole world, like what prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s) did in Arabia. All belief and faiths even atheism already existed during the time of prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) but he established Islam before he died after 23 years of prophethood.”

This is very nice but which Islam is the true religion, IslamTheTrueReligion, tell me ? Nasibis ? Shiites ? Which one will be established in the whole world ? Who is the anti-Christ ? There is a long road behind you.

“Whoever curses (or verbally abuses) Ali, he has, in fact, cursed me, and whoever has cursed me, he has cursed Allah, and whoever has cursed Allah, then Allah will throw him into the Hell-fire”.
Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Volume 6 page 33
112.
srizals
July 28, 2009 • 4:43 pm

Ahh,, the Labyrinth, Anyone still remember it. Nice movie. N the dialogue that kept on talking in my mind right now was when Sarah end up with two doors for her to choose from. Well, the doors are talking doors, One of them would always tell the truth and one of them would always lies. I love your movies. Very inspiring.
Well here’s the script of the movie.

Sarah: Oh no! Someone has been changing my marks. What a horrible place this is. It’s not fair!
Guard 1: That’s right! It’s not fair.
(Sarah turns around and sees that the dead end now has two doors. Each door is guarded. There are two guards for each door. Basically two of them are upside down. They are guards 2 & 4, and guards 1 & 3 are the guards standing correctly.)
Guards: (Laugh)
Guard 2: That’s only half of it.
Sarah: This was a dead end a minute ago.
Guard 4: No, that’s the dead end behind you.
(Sarah turns to look and sure enough it is now a dead end behind her.)
Guards: (Laugh)
Sarah: It keeps changing! What am I supposed to do?
Guard 2: Try one of these doors. But we should warn you.
Guard 4: One of them leads to the castle at the center of the Labyrinth, and the other one leads to…
Guard 1: Ba ba ba bum!
Guard 2: …certain death!
Guards: Oooooh!
Sarah: Which one is which?
Guard 2: We can’t tell you.
Sarah: Why not?
Guard 2: Uh, I uh…We don’t know.
Guard 4: But they do. (looks up at the other half of the guard)
Sarah: Oh. Then I’ll ask them.
Guard 3: Uh, you can’t ask us….you can only ask one of us.
Sarah: Why?
Guard 1: It’s in the rules. And you should know that one of us always tells the truth, and one of us always lies. That’s a rule too, he’s poodlepuh (pointing at Guard 3) He always lies.
Guard 3: No I do not! I tell the truth!
Guard 1: Oh what a lie!
Doors laughing…

I was just a kid back then. Still inspiring till even now.
113.
Claude
July 28, 2009 • 4:53 pm

Forget my post. I sent it to the wrong place. I apologise.
114.
londonspirit
July 28, 2009 • 4:56 pm

claude jesus will establish islam throughout the world. You will just have to wait till tat prophecy comes true. These are signs of the last days. In the case of ali. No one is allowed to abuse any human being so why would anyone want to cause ali. An finally the true religion is islam. Not sunni or shite or anything else. The people that generate these groups including ahmadi an nation of islam an wahabi are the worst as it says in the quran that the rope of allah shouldnt be broken. It also says in one hadith that towards the last days there wil be 73 sects of islam but onl one sect will enter heaven. The worst sects that break the rose of allah is the ahmadi an the nation of islam as they choose to completely ignore the true teachings of islam
115.
Claude
July 28, 2009 • 5:09 pm

Please, forget my last commentary, ,I post it to the wrong place. I apologise.

IslamTheTrueReligion

“He will kill DAJJAL (the Anti-Christ) and establish Islam in the whole world, like what prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s) did in Arabia. All belief and faiths even atheism already existed during the time of prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) but he established Islam before he died after 23 years of prophethood.”

This is very nice but which Islam is the true religion, IslamTheTrueReligion, tell me ? Nasibis ? Shiites ? Which one will be established in the whole world ? Who is the anti-Christ ? There is a long road behind you.

“Whoever curses (or verbally abuses) Ali, he has, in fact, cursed me, and whoever has cursed me, he has cursed Allah, and whoever has cursed Allah, then Allah will throw him into the Hell-fire”.
Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Volume 6 page 33
116.
R_not
July 28, 2009 • 6:00 pm

Marie, when someone is more concerned about how a Jew saw a day before there were clocks and not be concerned that their own ‘religion’ has a prophet and a god that are bloodthirsty, lying, greedy, overly sexed, and not giving one hoot whether or not their own people are treated well (the abuse of women and children in their texts), I would just say that you are being diverted onto the ridiculous while they feel smug and superior over absolutely nothing.

Then we got another one telling us fairy tales about someone else’s history while they don’t have a clue as to their own history of mohammed and islam.

This thread has turned into the muslims grasping at straws. Anything so they can feel all smug and superior. It must be hard to be a muslim especially if that is what it takes to feel good about one’s ‘religion’.
117.
londonspirit
July 28, 2009 • 8:10 pm

R-NOT this is so funny. I aint concerened at all about how jews saw day and night. But this is a discussion between me and marie about the authenticity of the bbible. And if there is a single contradiction than it cannot in any circumstances be the word of god because god cannot be wrong.

And what i also find really amusing is how people like yourself R-NOT can say that islam has a prophet and a god that are bloodthirsty, lying, greedy, overly sexed, and not giving one hoot whether or not their own people are treated well (the abuse of women and children in their texts), when nowhere in the text of the quran does it have a single verse that promotes these actions.

I GAVE A CHALLENGE ON THIS SITE ABOUT 3 MONTHS AGO TO FIND A SINGLE VERSE FROM THE QURAN THAT PROMOTES VIOLENCE AND THE KILLING OF THE INNOCOCENT BUT YET NO ONE HAS PROVIDED A REBUTTAL.

If you gave me the same cahllenge in regards to the bible, i would meet the challange with open arms, because the bible says to destroy whole nations, whether innocent or not, the bible allows child sex slaves, the bible even allows pornography.

So answer to these mate before you claim such devious things
118.
R_not
July 28, 2009 • 8:36 pm

#1. ‘innocent’ in islam is defined as only including muslims – it has no coverage over unbelievers, or even hypocrites (muslims who don’t fight, or give of their wealth, for allah’s Cause).

Here is a whole bunch of them, and they do nothing other than disbelieve in your allah and prophet:

“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)…..” Surah 9:5

“O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque” (Surah 9:28).

“O ye who believe! Fight the Unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him” (Surah 9:123).

There are bunches more rants about violence. Here are some hadiths:

And don’t go telling me the hadiths are invalid – your sharia laws are based on them, along with the koran and sunnah. And the koran only makes sense with them, and the sira.

“The Messenger of Allah (may ‘p’ be upon him) used not to kill the children, so thou shouldst not kill them unless you could know what Khadir had known about the child he killed, or you could distinguish between a child who would grow up to he a believer (and a child who would grow up to be a non-believer), so that you killed the (prospective) non-believer and left the (prospective) believer aside. (Sahih Muslim 4457)”

You can practice tu quoque excuses all you want, but we do not do those things you say are in the Bible. We stopped slavery over a century ago, islam has not. Do you want to know more about the depravity of your prophet – read this: http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/slavery.htm

watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk1RzkB7VEM

And no muslim country has signed onto the UN’s anti-slavery law because they say it goes against islam.

BAsically, you are defending the indefensible and I don’t have to go into your past history, longer than a decade, to show what depravity islam is ok with.

Now, I showed you some readings and a video – that I know you won’t watch. But, it is for anyone else who is interested.

As for the authenticity of the Bible, we have dead sea scrolls that were found recently that verified it. We have writings from innumerable men who basically convey the same message.

Then we have mohammed who comes out of the woodwork, conveys a totally different message from the Bible, and even changes the message in the koran, goats eat parts of the koran and then Uthman destroys the original which makes the whole thing a mess. Mohammed uses a god to excuse his lust, greed, need for killing, torture and assasination – and muslims get upset that we tell them this. I only get it from your texts! YOUR TEXTS. It is the only place where anything about mohammed comes from.
119.
Marie
July 28, 2009 • 8:43 pm

londonspirit:

i am sorry marie but u really are pathetic. I just told you i have to research further into history to answer the remainin 3 accusations as i have no knowledge of this part of history an i aint gonna give an answer that is based on my opinion like you do. firstly you have now given 3 opinions in regards to the miracle of jonah. Ur answer is changing everytime. What does that tell me an the rest of the readers. It tells me your speaking nonsense or just tryin to protect an prove somethin that can not be proved. Now your saying that keys thought part of a day as a full day. But i ask you than why would the bible say 3 days an 3 nights. Clearly that means not part of a day but 3 full days. You can not say friday evening an sunday morning is 3 full days. Jesus could have been out of the tomb by saturday night. No one knows.. Look anyway why did jesus say in th bible 3 days an 3 nights if keys at those days regarded part of a day as a full day. Surely jesus would have made it easier for himself by just saying 3 days. This is just one of the many flaws in the bible.

I say:

It is not a flow. In fact I got that info from William Lane Craig who is an American philosopher, theologian, and New Testament historian known for his contributions to the philosophy of religion, the philosophy of time, philosophical theology, and historical Jesus studies. According to this guy the Jews counted any part of the day as a full day.

londonspirit:

Your finding it hard just to answer this question. What happens when i present to you more an more. An answer my question to you about dis claiming divinity. Sure would love to hear ur response,

I say:

No it is not me who is having a hard time answering this question, it is you having a hard time accepting this answer even though I got it from a scholarly source.

In regards to me answering your question I’m still waiting for you to respond to the last three accusations and even though you say you are have to research it, you are trying to deviate attention away from my last remaining accusations.
120.
londonspirit
July 28, 2009 • 10:17 pm

OK MARIE i will silence you:

The Golden Calf

According to Surah 20:90-100 a Samaritan helped the Israelites build the Golden Calf. The problem is the samaritans are the descendents of Jews intermarrying with Gentiles and they did not exist until 1,000 years after the time of Moses.

ANSWER:

Until the middle of the 20th century it was commonly believed that the Samaritans originated from a mixed race people living in Samaria at the time of the Assyrian conquest (722 BCE). In a similar vein, the Christian missionaries and apologists have claimed that the Samaritans as a distinct people only emerged after the exile of the northern kingdom of Israel and the resettlement of the area under king Sargon II after 722 BCE. Based solely on the evidence of II Kings 17, the missionaries and apologists claim the Qur’anic mention of the name al-Samiri sometimes translated as “the Samaritan” (Qur’an 20:85, 87 and 95) during the time of Moses is a historical contradiction.

Contrary to the claims of the missionaries and apologists, specialists in Samaritan studies have noted that the use of the term shomronim in II Kings 17 tells us nothing about the origins of the Samaritans. Shomronim means the “inhabitants of Samaria” and it has nothing to do with shamerin, “keepers” or “observers” of the Torah, which the Samaritans use for themselves. Furthermore, the narrative in II Kings 17:18-24 claiming that the population of Israel in its totality was deported by Assyrians and exchanged to an alien population is unsupported by archaeology. This historical discrepancy severely undermines the veracity of the biblical claim concerning Samaritan origins. Consequently, modern scholars have conclusively rejected II Kings 17 as a source for the origins of Samaritans.

In recent years, research based on a more careful study of the Chronicles of the Samaritans has led to a re-evaluation of their origins. Specifically, with the publication of the Samaritan Chronicle II (Sefer ha-Yamim), the fullest Samaritan version of their own history became available. A historical analysis of this chronicle reveals that the Samaritans are the direct descendants of the Joseph tribes, Ephraim and Manasseh, and until the 17th century C.E. they possessed a high priesthood descending directly from Aaron through Eleazar and Phinehas. The common ancestry of both the Jews and Samaritans was also established by recent genetic studies, going back to cohen or the Jewish priestly family. This study also validated both local and foreign origins of the Samaritans.

The missionaries and apologists, ignorant of the Samaritans’ own version of their history as well as recent scholarly investigation and critical analysis, content themselves with repeating the claim made by William St. Clair Tisdall. Unfortunately, Tisdall was also not fully cognizant with the Chronicles of the Samaritans or the extant archaeological evidence; consequently, the missionaries and apologists make claims contrary to recent historical investigation. As we observed in this study, the Qur’anic mention of the name al-Samiri sometimes translated as “the Samaritan” (Qur’an 20:85, 87 and 95) is consistent with modern investigations into the origins of the Samaritan sect.

Judaism

According to Surah 9:30 the Jews believed that Ezra is the son of God-the Messiah. The Jews do not believe Ezra is the son of God and this assertion is blasphemous in Judaism.

ANSWER: Where do you get your information that jews never called Ezra son of god. From the bible thats where. And what do all muslims think of the present bible. That it is not the bible that was presented at the time of jesus. For your information people at those times called EZRA the father of jews. So there it is bound to the fact that many jews in israel called ezra the son of god. I believe in what the quran says and not what your bible says. I am not going to rely on information presented to me from the bible to to protray my views.

You will get your answer on last accusation very soon. But answer my 1 question
121.
srizals
July 28, 2009 • 11:17 pm

Guys, guess what I stumbled upon on the net?
Well, it is quite similar with this site, but instead of commoners of Muslims as writers, well, Ex Muslims, with poor knowledge of Islam in the first place (Ali Sina himself was a Syiah, a deviated sect of Muslims, far a part from the mainstream Muslims, the As sunnah wal jama’ah), the writers of this blog claimed they were ex-apologist for the Christian faiths, ex-ministers of the church.

Erm, R_not.. Are you going there and defend your faith like we Muslims are doing here in this blog? I can’t go there because you see, I can’t fought a Jihad on your behalf. You have to fight your own battle. I’m already wielding my sword in here, well, my pen. My pen is my sword. N I will cut your lies and hate to pieces. R_not, Jihad is not just in the battlefield for us Muslims. Are you ready for your crusades?

Hope to read your postings in this blog. Good luck.

http://faithfreedom.org/

Salam, my brother, londonspirit.

Do you have a web page or a blog or books? I would love to read them. I have a blog of my own. Well it is just created recently and I would be honoured if you can contribute your writings and thoughts there. Thank you my brother for being here. Sorry I couldn’t make it earlier since I’m quite busy fending of the accusations and lies at other sites. Salam again my brother.

N the rest of you, arpheel, ibnshar, Marie, I dare u…
122.
srizals
July 29, 2009 • 1:59 am

Hey not fair. Mr n Mrs Moderators, I suggest you kind gentlemen and women, not to change the links I provided if you really believe in whatever you want to believe.

Don’t show how coward you are to me. I’m just the average Joe. Don’t be afraid to cut my lies to pieces.
I provide the link again:

Debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com.

Don’t piss me off. The moderators at danielpipes are not that moderate too. Erm, Are you guys the same moderators???

Hi, see you in hell.

8:54 a.m. in this lovely morning breeze in the land of the Malays.

What are you afraid of?

This copy of comments is being copy and paste in all of the blogs and websites I am,er participating to err…defend my loathing lies and hideous ways..ermm…cowards…
123.
Marie
July 29, 2009 • 2:41 am

londonspirit read this:

In the Bible (Exodus 32) there is a story about Israelites worshiping a calf when Moses went to Mount Sinai to receive the Ten Commandments from God. When he returned he was angered and ordered �everyone to put on his sword and kill his brothers, his friends, and his neighbors� (Ex.32:27). In this story the culprits are the Israelites and Aaron the brother of Moses who let himself to be influenced by them. This incident is reported in the Quran in following verse.

He [Allah] said, “We have tempted thy people since thou didst leave them. The Samaritan (in Arabic Samiri) has led them into error.” Then Moses returned … … and we cast them [(gold) ornaments], as the Samaritan also threw them, into the fire.” (Then he brought out for them a Calf, a mere body that lowed; and they said, “This is your god, and the god of Moses, whom he has forgotten.”) … Moses said, “And thou, Samaritan, what was thy business?” …
� Quran 20:85-88, 95

In the Quranic version the culprit is the Samaritan who mislead the Jews into worshiping the bull. But in the original story of the Bible there is no mention of any Samaritan. Muslims claim that the Bible is corrupted. But the fact is that when Moses was alive, there were no Samaritans at all. According to 1 King 16:24 Samaria was a hill belonging to Shemer that was purchased by King Omri where he founded the city of Samaria about 870 B.C. The Samaritans as a distinct people only emerged after the exile of the Northern Kingdom of Israel and the resettlement of the area under king Sargon II after 722 B.C.

Moses lived 1400 years B.C. That is five to seven century before anyone could be called Samaritan (Sameri). Therefore the explanation of the Quran that Samaritans led the Jews to worship a calf cannot be correct. At the time of Moses Samaria did not exist and no one could be the citizen of a city that did not exist.

One wonders where Muhammad got the idea of Samaritans leading Israelites to idolatry? The answer to this confusion can be found in another similar story of calf-worshiping narrated in the (1 King 12:26-33). This episode happened during the time of Jeroboam. This was a time when the Jews were split into two kingdoms, the Northern Kingdom of Israel and the Southern kingdom of the Judah; Jerusalem being the major center of the worship for all the Jews was in Judah. Holy towns attract pilgrims, promote commerce and generate income. Jeroboam who was the king of the Israel, thought that not having a holy place of worship in his kingdom is weakening his position. So he decided to build a temple in Samaria, the seat of the Northern Kingdom, adorning it with the statutes of two golden calves to rival Jerusalem as the center of worship.

Biblical Scholars like Richard Elliot Friedman believe that the first story of the Jews worshiping the golden calf during the time of Moses to which Quran is alluding, actually did never happen. They believe that this story was fabricated by the writers of the Bible who were the high priests and the custodians of the temple of God in Jerusalem, to discredit Jerobeam and his temple in the Northern Kingdom. They invented the story of Moses and the golden calf, claiming that it provoked the wrath and punishment of God during the time of Moses. This did certainly send a strong message to the Jews that the temple erected by Jerobeam is unacceptable by God. Most probably the calves adorning the temple of Israel were symbolic and were not intended to be worshiped. Yet the story of the calf-worshiping-Jews, provoking the wrath of God, in the time of Moses had its intended effect. Emergence of a new temple in the North would not have only undermined the importance of Jerusalem as the sole religious center for all the Jews, but it would have also separated religiously a nation already split politically.

Hosea echoed his disapproval of the northern temple in the following terms.

Throw out your calf-idol, O Samaria! My anger burns against them. How long will they be incapable of purity? They are from Israel! This calf – a craftsman has made it; it is not God. It will be broken in pieces, that calf of Samaria. — Hosea 8:5-6

This is a warning to the Jews of 700 B.C. living in Samaria. It has nothing to do with the story of Moses and the Golden calf. Muhammad must have heard these two stories. But he confused the two and placed the Samaritans in a wrong context. Quran further continues:

�Moses said: “Get thee gone! but thy (punishment) in this life will be that thou wilt say, ‘touch me not’; and moreover (for a future penalty) thou hast a promise that will not fail: Now look at thy god, of whom thou hast become a devoted worshipper: We will certainly (melt) it in a blazing fire and scatter it broadcast� (Qur’an 20:97)

It is interesting to note that in this verse the Quran alludes to the fact that the Samaritans were regarded as untouchables (thou wilt say, �touch me not�) by the Jews. In fact the Israelites looked down at Samarians and considered them �untouchable� (Najis) because of their idolatry. But this stigma was not placed on the Samaritans by Moses. There were no Samaritans in the time of Moses. They earned this designation by the Jews centuries later.

Ali Sina

The “Samaritan” Error In The Qur’an

Introduction

After we had published our response, the “Islamic Awareness” team [a total of five authors] re-wrote their essay The “Samaritan” Error In The Qur’an? Their updated version contains little new information – except for an attempt to criticize the historicity of 2 Kings in order to wiggle the Qur’an out of its historical contradiction of placing a Samaritan in the time of Moses and the Exodus. The authors prefer to recycle many of their old arguments, therefore, I inserted my responses, to what little new material was added, into this article.

In this wordy and convoluted essay, the “Islamic Awareness” team attempts to muddle the history of the Samaritans in order to make it appear that Samaritans, as a distinct ethno-religious group, existed at the time of the Exodus. According to the Qur’an, a Samaritan led the Hebrews into idol worship while Moses was receiving the Law on Mount Sinai (Sura 20:85-87, 95-97). The problem with this claim is that the Samaritans were not known as a distinct ethno-religious group until around 722 B.C., when the term “Samaritan” was coined (cf. this short, introductory article). Therefore, the “Islamic-Awareness” team attempts to enlarge the possible definition of the term “Samaritan” to be broad enough to provide the possibility that a “Samaritan” could have existed during the time of the Exodus. Who were/are the Samaritans?

There are three ways in which the term “Samaritan” can be used:

1. The term “Samaritan” can be used to define a person in terms of geography. Samaritans were the inhabitants of the region of Samaria, an area north of Judea and south of Galilee on the western shore of the Jordan River. The capital of this region was also originally called Samaria – rebuilt and renamed “Sebaste”, in honor of Augustus Caesar, by Herod the Great.

2. The term “Samaritan” can also be used to define a person in terms of physical descent and ethnicity. Samaritans believe that they are the descendants of the Israelite tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh, who made up most of the northern kingdom of Israel, with some blood from the Assyrians and Greeks. The “Islamic Awareness” team employs a bizarre version of this definition to attempt to place a “Samaritan” in the time of the Exodus.

3. “Samaritan” is also a term which describes/defines this group’s religion. The Bible views the Samaritans mostly from the religious definition, but also refers to the Samaritans as a distinct group based on descent and ethnicity. The basic tenants of the Samaritan faith are:

1. There is One God.
2. Moses is the one and only Prophet.
3. The Torah.
4. Mount Gerizim [not Mount Zion] is the place of worship.
5. Belief in the Day of Judgement and Recompense [accepted as doctrine some time after 200 A.D.].

The most extensive Biblical discussion of the Samaritans is found in John 4, and perfectly demonstrates that the Bible defines Samaritans according to a definition based on their religion, as well as alluding to their national origins, or physical descent.

In this passage, Jesus was passing through the region of Samaria where he met a Samaritan woman. The story continues [John 4:7-22]:-

Jesus said to her, “Give me a drink.” For his disciples had gone away into the city to buy food. The Samaritan woman said to him, “How is it that you, a Jew, ask a drink of me, a woman of Samaria?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans. Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.” The woman said to him, “Sir, you have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep; where do you get that living water? Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, and his sons, and his cattle?” Jesus said to her, “Every one who drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst; the water that I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.” Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.” The woman answered him, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband’; for you have had five husbands, and he whom you now have is not your husband; this you said truly.” The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain; and you say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.” Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.”

This passage clearly defines Samaritans as a religious group [as opposed to showing them as a regional or ethnic group]. Jesus provides us with several Jewish opinions concerning the Samaritans: (1) the vessels of the Samaritans are ritually impure, (2) the Samaritans are sexually permissive [the woman in this passage had five husbands and a boyfriend], and (3) the religious rites and practices of the Samaritans were wrong – they prayed on the wrong mountain and worshiped in ignorance. The point of this particular story is that if a corrupt Samaritan recognized Jesus as a Prophet, then why don’t the Jews?

It is also interesting to note that the Samaritan woman made a claim that is similar to one that the “Islamic Awareness” team makes for the Samaritan people [in her reference to "our father Jacob" in verse 12] – that they are the true Israel, or “the observant” according to “Islamic Awareness”. The “Islamic Awareness” team should note that Jesus rejected this claim by saying:-

You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

In this passage, Jesus asserts the truth of the Jewish faith against the Samaritan religious system. Jesus also makes a distinction between the Jews and Samaritans based on their national origins. Jesus never made such a distinction with the Galileans, for example.

Samaritans Or Samarians?

The “Islamic Awareness” team attempts to unlink the connection between the “Samaritans” from the geographical region of Samaria. This is an attempt to wiggle the Qur’an out of the problem of having a Samaritan in the time of Moses – five to seven centuries before anyone could be called Samaritan. The anachronism clearly proves that the Qur’anic tale of the Samaritan tempting the Hebrews to worship a golden calf is historically and factually incorrect. Simply put, Samaria, as a geographical place name, did not exist during the time of the Exodus. Therefore, no one could have possibly been a citizen of a place that did not exist.

In order to accomplish this goal, the “Islamic Awareness” team provides us with the quote from The Interpreter’s Dictionary of The Bible:

… the Samaritans prefer to style themselves ‘Shamerim’ i.e., “the observant” – rather than ‘Shomeronim’ i.e., “the inhabitants of Samaria.”

The “Islamic Awareness” team distinguishes between the name shomronim, which appears in 2 Kings 17:29, and shamerim, meaning “keepers” or “observers”, which the “Islamic Awareness” team claims is the name that the Samaritans use for themselves since it refers to their being the keepers or observers of the Torah.

What makes this position so ironic is that the “Islamic Awareness” team has basically proven that the Quran is incorrect for placing one of the shamerim at the time of Moses! The Quran expressly says that as-Samiri was there with the Israelites even before Moses was given the Torah:

(When Moses was up on the Mount, God said:) “What made thee hasten in advance of thy people, O Moses?” He replied: “Behold, they are close on my footsteps: I hastened to thee, O my Lord, to please thee.” (God) said: “We have tested thy people in thy absence: the Samiri has led them astray.” So Moses returned to his people in a state of indignation and sorrow. He said: “O my people! did not your Lord make a handsome promise to you? Did then the promise seem to you long (in coming)? Or did ye desire that Wrath should descend from your Lord on you, and so ye broke your promise to me?” They said: “We broke not the promise to thee, as far as lay in our power: but we were made to carry the weight of the ornaments of the (whole) people, and we threw them (into the fire), and that was what the Samiri suggested. “Then he brought out (of the fire) before the (people) the image of a calf: It seemed to low: so they said: This is your god, and the god of Moses, but (Moses) has forgotten!” Could they not see that it could not return them a word (for answer), and that it had no power either to harm them or to do them good? Aaron had already, before this said to them: “O my people! ye are being tested in this: for verily your Lord is (God) Most Gracious; so follow me and obey my command.” They had said: “We will not abandon this cult, but we will devote ourselves to it until Moses returns to us.” (Moses) said: “O Aaron! what kept thee back, when thou sawest them going wrong, “From following me? Didst thou then disobey my order?” (Aaron) replied: “O son of my mother! Seize (me) not by my beard nor by (the hair of) my head! Truly I feared lest thou shouldst say, ‘Thou has caused a division among the children of Israel, and thou didst not respect my word!’” (Moses) said: “What then is thy case, O Samiri?” He replied: “I saw what they saw not: so I took a handful (of dust) from the footprint of the Apostle, and threw it (into the calf): thus did my soul suggest to me.” (Moses) said: “Get thee gone! but thy (punishment) in this life will be that thou wilt say, ‘touch me not’; and moreover (for a future penalty) thou hast a promise that will not fail: Now look at thy god, of whom thou hast become a devoted worshipper: We will certainly (melt) it in a blazing fire and scatter it broadcast in the sea!” But the god of you all is the One God: there is no god but He: all things He comprehends in His knowledge. S. 20:83-98

The Quran claims that As-Samiri was instrumental in leading the people to fashion and worship the golden calf. It was at this specific juncture that Moses came down from the mount with the stone tablets:

The people of Moses made, in his absence, out of their ornaments, the image of calf, (for worship): it seemed to low: did they not see that it could neither speak to them, nor show them the way? They took it for worship and they did wrong. When they repented, and saw that they had erred, they said: “If our Lord have not mercy upon us and forgive us, we shall indeed be of those who perish.” When Moses came back to his people, angry and grieved, he said: “Evil it is that ye have done in my place in my absence: did ye make haste to bring on the judgment of your Lord?” He put down the tablets, seized his brother by (the hair of) his head, and dragged him to him. Aaron said: “Son of my mother! the people did indeed reckon me as naught, and went near to slaying me! Make not the enemies rejoice over my misfortune, nor count thou me amongst the people of sin.” Moses prayed: “O my Lord! forgive me and my brother! admit us to Thy mercy! for Thou art the Most Merciful of those who show mercy!” Those who took the calf (for worship) will indeed be overwhelmed with wrath from their Lord, and with shame in this life: thus do We recompense those who invent (falsehoods). But those who do wrong but repent thereafter and (truly) believe,- verily thy Lord is thereafter Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. When the anger of Moses was appeased, he took up the tablets: in the writing thereon was guidance and Mercy for such as fear their Lord. S. 7:148-153

In light of the foregoing discussion, how could there have been an “observer” or “keeper” of the Torah when there was, at that point in history, no Torah to “observe” or “keep”?

Moreover, liberal-critical scholarship dates the composition of the Torah, in its final form, sometime after the return of the Jews from the Babylonian captivity in the sixth century B.C. (Source).

Since the “Islamic Awareness” team likes to appeal to liberal-critical scholarship to undermine the Bible, they need to consistently apply their criticisms against the Qur’an. They must accept the fact that the Quran has committed a gross chronological error by placing the wrong person at the wrong time in the wrong place.

The “Islamic Awareness” team’s attempt to convince us that the shomronim are the “keepers” and “observers” of the Torah simply fails to solve the Qur’an’s anachronistic use of the term “Samaritan.”

The Qur’an names the man who tempted the Israelites into worshiping the golden calf “as-Samiri” which, according to Muslim scholars, means “the Samaritan”. If the Qur’anic “As-Samiri” is not a geographic appellation for the Samaritan, could it be a religious designation?

Surah 20:85 tells us:

(Allah) said: “We have tested thy people in thy absence: the Samiri has led them astray.”

If were are to believe the “Islamic Awareness” claim that “as-Samiri” really comes from the term ‘Shamerim’, then how can the Qur’an call a man, who practices and leads others into the grave sin of idolatry, “the observant”, or “keeper” of the Torah – ignoring for the moment the fact that the Torah did not exist at that point in history? Also, in the interest of linguistic and historic accuracy, the Samaritans, according to Coggins – an author quoted several times by the “Islamic Awareness” team – called themselves “Israel.” [Samaritans, p. 10]. They also use the terms Myrim and Nyiram which they claim mean “keepers” or “observers” of the truth, or the Law of God. (Source)

So, where did Muhammad get the weird notion that a Samaritan was present during the Exodus? After all, the account of Exodus does not mention a “Samaritan”. Muhammad’s little tale is, however, half-correct. The Samaritans did, in fact, worship a golden calf, but not during the time of Moses.

According to 1 Kings 12, Jeroboam, who was the king of northern Israel, feared that:-

“The kingdom will now likely revert to the house of David. If these people go up to offer sacrifices at the temple of the LORD in Jerusalem, they will again give their allegiance to their lord, Rehoboam king of Judah. They will kill me and return to King Rehoboam.” [1 Kings 12:26-27]

In order to preclude this from happening, Jeroboam built a temple in Samaria [the capital of the Northern Kingdom] to draw the faithful away from the temple in Jerusalem. Jeroboam’s temple had two statutes of golden calves.

1 Kings 12: 28-30 tells us:

“After seeking advice, the king made two golden calves. He said to the people, “It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem. Here are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.” One he set up in Bethel, and the other in Dan. And this thing became a sin; the people went even as far as Dan to worship the one there.

The Prophet Hosea also wrote about this northern temple:

They set up kings without my consent; they choose princes without my approval. With their silver and gold they make idols for themselves to their own destruction. Throw out your calf-idol, O Samaria! My anger burns against them. How long will they be incapable of purity? They are from Israel! This calf—a craftsman has made it; it is not God. It will be broken in pieces, that calf of Samaria. [Hosea 8:4-6]

It is reasonable to conclude that Muhammad conflated two Biblical events – which occurred centuries apart – to form his Qur’an’s odd, and historically and factually incorrect, little tale of the “Samaritan” who tempted the Hebrews into idol worship.

Surah 20:97 amplifies the aforementioned conclusion:-

(Moses) said: “Get thee gone! but thy (punishment) in this life will be that thou wilt say, ‘touch me not’; and moreover (for a future penalty) thou hast a promise that will not fail: Now look at thy god, of whom thou hast become a devoted worshipper: We will certainly (melt) it in a blazing fire and scatter it broadcast in the sea!”

This passage tells us that the Samaritans were regarded as “untouchable”, or spiritually unclean, by the Jews because of their worship of idols. However, Moses could not have placed this status on the Samaritans because there were no Samaritans in his time. The Jews gave the Samaritans this status many centuries later.

The Origin Of The Samaritans

There are three theories as to the origins of the Samaritans:-

The Jewish view. The Samaritans are the descendants of the colonists that King Shalmaneser, of Assyria, brought from Cutha, Babylon, Hamath, and other foreign regions after he conquered Samaria in 722 B.C.. King Shalmaneser then deported the native population according to 2 Kings 17.

Samaritan view: The Samaritans are remnants of the northern Israelite tribes who were left behind when their brethren were deported by the Assyrians.

Modern Scholars: The Samaritans are descendents of Mesopotamian tribes who were deported by the Assyrians and Babylonians to Samaria. This is, in part, the opinion of Shen et. al.’s genetic study of the Samaritan haplogroup, which the “Islamic Awareness” team cites.

It appears that all three explanations of the origins of the Samaritans are correct, at least to some degree. Foreign deportees did, in fact, mingle with the local Israelite remnants. This mixed community developed a divergent Jewish sect sometime between the 800 and 500 B.C.

The “Islamic Awareness” team objects to this conclusion. However, these theories are not mutually exclusive and do fit the genetic study, which the “Islamic Awareness” team cites, but does not link to the online version, which tells us:

Based on the close relationship of the Samaritan haplogroup J six-microsatellite haplotypes with the Cohen modal haplotype, we speculate that the Samaritan M304 Y-chromosome lineages present a subgroup of the original Jewish Cohanim priesthood that did not go into exile when the Assyrians conquered the northern kingdom of Israel in 721 BC, but married Assyrian and female exiles relocated from other conquered lands, which was a typical Assyrian policy to obliterate national identities. This is in line with biblical texts that emphasize a common heritage of Jews and Samaritans, but also record the negative attitude of Jews towards the Samaritans because of their association with people that were not Jewish.

The “Islamic Awareness” team concludes:-

Until the middle of the 20th century it was commonly believed that the Samaritans originated from a mixed race people living in Samaria at the time of the Assyrian conquest (722-721 BCE). In recent years however, new research based on a more careful study of the Chronicles of the Samaritans has led to a re-evaluation of their origins. Specifically, with the publication of Chronicle II (Sefer ha-Yamim), the fullest Samaritan version of their own history became available.

First, in regard to the Chronicles of the Samaritans, we have a “chronic chronology” problem. Lester L. Grabbe, of the University of Hull says:

The Chronicles are a mine field of problems. On the one hand, they claim to trace the Samaritan religion back to Moses and to give an account of their history independently (at least, in part) of the OT. On the other hand, all the Chronicles are late, some of them from the 19th or even 20th century in their present form. Study of them is not far advanced, and Samaritan specialists have reached no consensus on their inter-relationships.

The “Islamic Awareness” team often attempts to discredit various Qur’an borrowing theories on the grounds that many of the parallels found in sources outside of the Qur’an exist in manuscripts written much later than the Qur’an, and conclude that the Qur’an could not have borrowed these tales. In this instance, the “Islamic Awareness” team demonstrates their hypocrisy by attempting to use a text dating from around the 19-20th century A.D. to discredit a text which has existed for over 2 thousand years!

The “Islamic Awareness” team concludes with their most bizarre and desperate explanation to wiggle the Qur’an out of its problem of having a Samaritan tempt the Israelites centuries before there were Samaritans:-

A historical analysis of this chronicle reveals that the Samaritans are the direct descendants of the Joseph tribes, Ephraim and Manasseh, and until the 17th century C.E. they possessed a high priesthood descending directly from Aaron through Eleazar and Phinehas. The common ancestry of both the Jews and Samaritans was also established by recent genetic studies, going back to cohen or the Jewish priestly family. This study also validated both local and foreign origins of the Samaritans.

In the first place, no one has denied that the Jews and the Samaritans have common ancestors. The genetic studies [to which the "Islamic Awareness" team refers, but does not provide a link to the online version] confirms the Biblical view of the origins of the Samaritans:

Based on the close relationship of the Samaritan haplogroup J six-microsatellite haplotypes with the Cohen modal haplotype, we speculate that the Samaritan M304 Y-chromosome lineages present a subgroup of the original Jewish Cohanim priesthood that did not go into exile when the Assyrians conquered the northern kingdom of Israel in 721 BC, but married Assyrian and female exiles relocated from other conquered lands, which was a typical Assyrian policy to obliterate national identities. This is in line with biblical texts that emphasize a common heritage of Jews and Samaritans, but also record the negative attitude of Jews towards the Samaritans because of their association with people that were not Jewish.

The “Islamic Awareness” team is attempting to imply that since the Samaritans are descendents of the Jewish Cohanim, then they must have been around during the time of the Exodus! This is a very incorrect and bizarre conclusion, to say the least.

All humans on this planet are descendents of people who were alive during the time of the Exodus, however, all of the ethno-religious groups, which developed over time, cannot/do not seriously claim to have been present at the foot of Mount Sinai when Moses was receiving the law!

This “Islamic-Awareness” team did not like this argument, so they reach for the usual fallacies of the ad-hominem argument – accusing me of not reading the article although, unlike their article, my article links to the online version so that others can read it and reach their own conclusions. They also set up a straw-man argument [that I somehow believe that genetic information disappears when one changes religions]. Both of these fallacies are weak attempts to distract attention from the discussion at hand and to continue to imply that since the Samaritans are descendents of the Jewish Cohanim, then they must have been around, as a distinct group, during the time of the Exodus!

Another problem is that there are many other groups which carry the Cohen modal haplotype. Among the Bantu speaking Lemba of southern Africa nearly fifty-two percent of males carry the Cohen modal haplotype! The Cohen Modal haplotype is also found in significant numbers among Italians and Kurds.

So, if we wish to carry the “Islamic Awareness” team’s implications to their illogical conclusion, we could also claim that the Bantu Lemba, Italians, and Kurds were, along with the Samaritans, also present during the Exodus!

This conclusion in nonsensical, as well as historically inaccurate. The Samaritans, Lemba, Italians, and Kurds did not exist as ethic groups until centuries later. In the case of the Samaritans, their ethnic identity was forged long after the time of the Exodus.

The “Islamic Awareness” team triumphantly concludes:

As we observed in this study, the Qur’anic mention of the name al-Samiri sometimes translated as “the Samaritan” (Qur’an 20:85, 87 and 95) is consistent with modern investigations into the origins of the Samaritan sect.

However, they have failed miserably to make the case. The Samaritans did not exist during the time of the Exodus and the Qur’an is in error by making such a claim. Scholars say that the term “Samaritan” has three major definitions:

Geographical: If the “Samaritans” were named after Samaria, the Qur’an is in error because no place called Samaria would exist for many centuries after the events of Exodus.

Physical Descent and Ethnicity: This appears to be the “Islamic Awareness” team’s favorite definition. The Samaritans are a people of mixed stock according to the genetic studies cited by the “Islamic Awareness” team. The Samaritans came into being when Jewish males, who did not go into exile, mated with Assyrian female exiles relocated from other conquered parts of the Empire. These historic events, and hence the creation of a “Samaritan” people, took place long after the events of the Exodus.

Religion: The Holy Bible defines the “Samaritans” in terms of their religious beliefs and practices – which are deemed incorrect, as well as their distinct ethnicity. There are four opinions concerning when the schism, which created the Samaritan religion, occurred.

1. The Samaritans claim that the schism occurred after Joshua’s death when the priest Eli left the tabernacle, built by Moses, and established a new place of worship on Mount Gerizim and another in the hills of Shilo (see 1 Samuel 1:1-3; 2:12-17) – sometime around the 12th centutry B.C. According to the Samaritans, the event which formed the “Samaritans”, as a distinct religious group, occurred after the events of Exodus. According to the Samaritan opinion, the Jews, whose numerous Prophets are recognized by both the Bible and the Qur’an, are the dissidents and heretics!

2. The Jews date the schism to the 8th century B.C., sometime after the Assyrian conquest of the region.

3. Some believe, based on an interpretation of passages from Ezra, Nehemiah, and Josephus, that the Samaritan schism took place in the Persian period.

4. Others contend that the Samaritan schism occurred in the early Greek period.

As for historic evidence, the Elephantine Papyri, which dates from the 5th century B.C., indicates that the schism between the Jews and the Samaritans already existed, but it wasn’t very deep. The schism worsened later, due to the rival places of worship which were served by different priestly groups – one in Jerusalem, the other on Mount Gerizim.

By any of the above-mentioned definitions, it is clear that the Samaritans did not exist at the time of the Exodus.

So, how did Muhammad make such a mistake when he wove this tale into his Qur’an? The most reasonable explanation is that Muhammad confused [and conflated] the story of the golden calf made by the Hebrews of the Exodus [Exodus 32] with the golden calf made centuries later by the Samaritans according to 1 Kings 12 and Hosea 8.

(Some further remarks by the editor.)

A historical observation

At least two of the authors who have worked on the Samaritan paper of Islamic Awareness, M S M Saifullah and Muhammad Ghoniem, were able to see the obvious much more clearly before they confused themselves with reading a hundred articles about the Samaritans.

I guess if brother Omar was to be compared to anyone in the story of the cow it is by no means Moses. Actually, in the story of Moses with the Jews, he might be compared to a knowledgeable student of Moses that took the opportunity of the absence of his Master to misguide a whole nation into worshiping the golden calf. Although As-Saamiri (the Samaritan) had learnt a lot of things from his Prophet (Moses), he managed to go astray and lead his people far from the path drawn by Moses before his departure. (Mohammad Ghoniem, newsgroup posting on soc.religion.islam (SRI) on 27 April 1998; source)

Of course, the “i” in the end of As-Saamiri makes it likely (though not necessary) that it refers to an origin. (Mohammad Ghoniem, posted on SRI on 2 June 1999; source)

as-Samiri, as far as, my personal opinion goes is a title rather than a name. Further investigations need to be carried out on this issue. It is just like al-Aziz in the story of Yusuf(P). Even a better example would be al-Dimashiqi or al-Hindi which are used as titles for a person from Damascus and India. Similarly as-Samiri would mean the Samaritan. And Allah knows best! (M S M Saifullah, posted on SRI on 25 May 1999; source)

Today they no longer want to accept the most natural and straight-forward explanation that as-Samiri is a Samaritan and this name is derived from the city of Samaria, as are many similar names in Arabic that refer to geographic origin. Instead they want to argue that it comes from the religious self-understanding of the Samaritans. But are they gaining anything by it? Not at all …

Going from bad to worse

On 12 July 2006, “Islamic Awareness” announced that their article on the Samaritan error in the Qur’an “is now almost completely re-written with new information.” It is rather amazing to see that in their revision they completely ignored, and still ignore to this day, our observation that their thesis conflicts with the Qur’an and produces glaring contradictions (see the above section under the subheading Samaritans Or Samarians?) Even if the argument of the IA team had been correct (and it is not), and they had been able to separate the Samari(t)ans from the city/region of Samaria, their definition based on the religious self-understanding of the Samaritans contradicts the Qur’an in several points.

The Muslim authors tried to save the Qur’an from the anachronistic reference to a Samaritan before the existence of Samaria, but as the fruit of their labor they now have “Torah observers” before there was a Torah, and the fact that the Qur’an depicts this “Torah observer” as an idolater who led Israel astray, and who already stood in opposition to Moses before the Torah was completed. Despite producing several dozens of pages of text and 55 footnotes to support their argument, Islamic Awareness merely managed to jump from the frying pan into the fire.

There is, however, one small indication that the Muslim authors have realized there are problems. Note how they have slightly changed the concluding sentence of their article:

The Qur’anic mention of the name al-Samiri sometimes translated as “the Samaritan” (Qur’an 20:85, 87 and 95) is entirely consistent with modern investigations into the origin of the Samaritan sect. (until 11 July 2006)

As we observed in this study, the Qur’anic mention of the name al-Samiri sometimes translated as “the Samaritan” (Qur’an 20:85, 87 and 95) is consistent with modern investigations into the origins of the Samaritan sect. (since 12 July 2006)

Notice how the word “entirely” was removed from their conclusion. This is one very small step into the right direction.

Contradicting the spirit of the Qur’an

Besides contradicting the Qur’an in these very specific points mentioned above, the thesis of the IA team is not in line with the spirit of the Qur’an in general.

The authors defend the name “as-Samiri” by referring to the religious self-understanding of the Samaritans as “Torah observers”. They take great efforts to justify their acceptance of the Samaritan religious self-understanding as historically correct.

However, can the Muslim authors name for us just one example of a religious group (other than the Muslims) whose self-understanding the Qur’an describes correctly, let alone accepts as correct? Is there any religious group which the Qur’an refers to in an accurate way, and based on this accurate description of their beliefs then (accepts or) rejects their beliefs?

Just a few out of many examples that could be given: The Qur’an teaches that Jews worship Ezra as the son of God, a claim that is entirely wrong (*). The Qur’an misrepresents the Christian doctrine of the Trinity (*) in several ways, but most drastically by including Mary into it, and it misrepresents the meaning of the biblical title “Son of God” (1, 2). The Qur’an does not even accept the name that the Christians use for themselves; it uses the word nasara (”Nazarenes”) for them instead of maseehi, the Arabic word for Christians (al-masih = the Christ, maseehi = Christians).

But when the Qur’an distorts and misrepresents the beliefs of Jews and Christians according to their self-understanding, and Muslims to this day hardly ever accept any description of the Christian or Jewish faith based on their own self-understanding, why then would the authors suddenly find the religious self-understanding of the Samaritans trustworthy?

The Samaritan Torah

The IA team makes the following statement:

Unlike the claim of the Christian missionaries, there is nothing to suggest in the Samaritan Chronicles that they adopted a syncretism between the religion of the Jews and their own polytheistic background. On the contrary, the Chronicles clearly affirm their monotheism during the Assyrian rule. It must be emphasized that the Samaritans’ devotion to the Torah was already recognized from the fact that it alone constituted their canon of Scripture. This is further emphasized by the word shamerin – the keepers of the Torah. This very name implies a group which maintained the traditional ways and was suspicious of change.

Given that the Muslim authors hold the Samaritan writings in such high esteem, and they are trustworthy because their very name suggests so, I want to ask them a couple of questions.

Does the Islamic Awareness team accept the Torah of the Samaritans as authentic? If not, i.e. if not even their central Scripture is to be trusted – despite their name “keepers of the Torah” which is central to their very identity – why would they be willing to trust the other Samaritan books, and in particular the Samaritan Chronicles? But does a rejection of the authenticity of the Samaritan version of the Torah not lead their article ad absurdum?

If, however, they are willing to accept the Samaritan Pentateuch as being the faithfully kept Torah of Moses, what are they doing with the many contradictions between it and the Qur’an?

Muslims make the steep claim that the Jews corrupted their Scriptures, including the Torah. Given that the Jews and the Samaritans have been opposing each other for so long, and Islamic Awareness wants to see the Samaritans as a distinct group going back even to the time of Moses, it is rather unthinkable that both groups would sit down together to corrupt both the Jewish and the Samaritan version of the Torah in exactly the same way. Even if the Muslim authors do not want to accept either the Jewish Torah as fully authentic or the Samaritan Torah as fully authentic (as both groups could have introduced some corruption to their texts), are they at least willing to accept those parts of the text in which the Jewish and the Samaritan versions of the Pentateuch agree?

Let’s look, in particular, at the story in the Torah that is the reason for this discussion, namely the story of the fashioning and worship of the golden calf. Does either the Jewish or the Samaritan version know anything of a Samaritan as the one who created this idol to lead Israel astray? If neither version of the Torah knows anything about a Samaritan in this incident, how credible is the introduction of this character into the Qur’anic version of the story?

Indeed, the Jewish and the Samaritan Torah agree that it was Aaron who fashioned the Golden Calf (Exodus 32:1-6), and neither version mentions anything about a Samaritan existing at this time, let alone contributing to the Golden Calf.

Doesn’t this observation send the team of Islamic Awareness right back to square one?

Jochen Katz

2 Kings 17:18-24 – A Historical Narrative or a Historical Absurdity?

Unable to defend the absurdities of the Qur’an, the “Islamic Awareness” team attacks the book of 2 Kings, which provides the earliest historical reference to the Samaritan people. According to the “Islamic Awareness” team, there were between 560,000 and 800,000 people living in the northern kingdom of Israel, however, an Assyrian inscription from the time of Sargon II records that this leader deported 27,290 people from Samaria. So, is the Bible wrong and the Qur’an accurate by default? Does this prove that a Samaritan lived during the time of Moses?

There are a number of theories and opinions among Bible scholars. Some scholars challenge the Bible’s claim that the entire population of the northern kingdom of Israel went into Assyrian captivity. There are a number of scholars who argue that the leaders of the northern kingdom of Israel fell into the captivity of the Assyrians, while the majority either fled south to Judah or were assimilated into the alien populations transplanted in the northern kingdom by the Assyrians – as described in 2 Kings 17:24. Other scholars believe that the entire northern population of Israelites were enslaved and deported. Before the Assyrian invasions, many people from the northern kingdom moved south after the separation of Israel from Judah in protest of the practices of Jeroboam I [see 1 Kings 12:25-33; 13:33 and 2 Chronicles 11:13-16]. Many more would leave during the reigns of Ahab and Jezebel [1 Kings 16:28-33; 18:3-4, 18]. Also, it is likely that many fled to Judah to escape the invading Assyrian army.

What about King Sargon II’s claim to have taken 27,290 captives from Samaria? This number is very small when compared to the total population of the northern kingdom of Israel. History provides us with some insight. Shalmaneser V conquered Samaria in the last year of his reign. Sargon II is considered, by some scholars, to be a usurper who ruled Assyria from 722-705 B.C. Sargon claimed that he, and not Shalmaneser V, conquered Samaria so that the annals of the first year of his reign would record a victory. Sargon took advantage of the circumstances of the time – the fact that Shalmaneser V was deposed before his military exploits were fully recorded by history.

Therefore, Sargon may have honestly and accurately recorded the results of his invasion of Samaria during the first year of his reign. However, it is obvious that Sargon omitted the history of the larger deportations of the people of the northern kingdoms of Israel, carried out by his predecessors, leaving the false impression that his own campaigns of destruction and deportation were greater than they actually were.

In other words Sargon’s small number of deportees is significant in that it matches both Assyrian history and the Biblical account of history. The thousands of deportees recorded by Sargon do not include the large deportations committed by his predecessors, Tiglath-pileser III and Shalmaneser V.

The “Islamic Awareness” team also appeals to the Samaritan Chronicle to somehow prove that this group was not polluted by syncretism. The Samaritan Chronicle, as previously mentioned dates from recent times, some texts are from the 19th or even 20th century in their present form.

The “Islamic Awareness” also appeals to R.J. Coggins’ statement [in his book Samaritans] that II Kings 17 says nothing about the origin of the Samaritans. This is simply not true.

The Bible describes the rejection of the Samaritans by Zerubbabel, Ezra, and Nehemiah because of their heathen ancestry. This ancestry, and the commencement of Samaritan worship on Gerizim, were two major issues which led to the schism with the Jews, and began the process of the theological development of the Samaritans as a religious sect.

According to the New Testament, the Samaritans trace their origins to the importations of foreigners by Assyria into the region of Samaria. In Matthew 10:5-6 Jesus said:

“Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

It is clear that Jesus did not consider the Samaritans a part of the “house of Israel”, in spite the fact that the Samaritans worshiped the God of Moses and kept, what they believed to be “the pure Law”. This confirms the account of II Kings 17’s description of the origins of the Samaritans.

Additional evidence comes from Luke 17:18, where Jesus calls the Samaritan who returned to thank Him for healing him a “foreigner”. Jesus’ comment in this passage, as well as in other passages concerning the Samaritans, clearly shows that He considered the Samaritans to be non-Israelites, as well as religious heretics.

Conclusions

The “Islamic Awareness” team has not provided an adequate defense for the Qur’an’s anachronistic use of the term Samaritan in the time of Moses and the Exodus.

First, the “Islamic Awareness” team attempted to unlink the Samaritans from the geographic regions of Samaria, claiming that the Samaritans prefer to call themselves ‘Shamerim’, or the “keepers” or “observers” of the Torah, rather than ‘Shomeronim’ – “the inhabitants of Samaria.” This defense is refuted, not only by history, but also by the Qur’an itself since the Torah did not exist at the time when the Samaritan of the Qur’an was said to have led the Israelites into the sin of idolatry.

The second line of defense for the “Islamic Awareness” team is to cite a genetic study which shows that the Samaritans carry the Cohen modal haplotype [as do a number of other population groups]. However, according to the genetic studies cited by the “Islamic Awareness” team, the Samaritans are a people of mixed stock, and this study concludes that its findings are “in line with biblical texts”. The Samaritans came into being when Jewish males, who did not go into exile, mated with Assyrian female exiles relocated from other conquered parts of the Empire. These historic events, and hence the creation of a “Samaritan” people, took place long after the events of the Exodus, so this defense fails to defend the Qur’an’s anachronistic use of the term Samaritan in the time of Moses.

The third, and final argument made by the “Islamic Awareness” team is an attack on the historicity of 2 Kings, claiming that an inscription from the time of Sargon II refutes the Biblical claim that the population of the northern kingdom was deported. However, a critical examination of both Israelite and Assyrian history, as opposed to selective quote mining in order to reach a pre-determined conclusion, easily solves this problem.

Andrew Vargo

From the Institute for Biblical and Scientific studies:

According to Josephus during the Greek period Manasseh, the brother of Jaddua the high priest had married Nicaso, a foreign woman. The priests demanded that Manasseh divorce his wife or not approach the altar. Sanballat II (different from the one mentioned in Nehemiah) his father-in-law told Manasseh that he would build him a temple on Mount Gerizum just like the one at Jerusalem if he would not divorce his wife. Alexander the Great gave Sanballat, a general in his army, permission to build the temple (Antiquities of the Jews Book XI, 8:2-4). Some Two hundred years later Hyrcanus destroyed the temple on Mount Gerizum (Antiquities of the Jews Book XIII, 9:1).

londonspirit:

ANSWER: Where do you get your information that jews never called Ezra son of god. From the bible thats where. And what do all muslims think of the present bible. That it is not the bible that was presented at the time of jesus. For your information people at those times called EZRA the father of jews. So there it is bound to the fact that many jews in israel called ezra the son of god. I believe in what the quran says and not what your bible says. I am not going to rely on information presented to me from the bible to to protray my views.

I say:

Ezra was a Jewish prophet and the Jews never considered him as son of God. Also at that time of Jesus Jews had passed a law to refer for someone to call themselves son of God ( which includes referring to some as son of God ).
124.
Marie
July 29, 2009 • 2:51 am

Here’s more londonspirit:

Reconstruction of patrilineages and matrilineages of Samaritans and other Israeli populations from Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA sequence variation.

Shen P, Lavi T, Kivisild T, Chou V, Sengun D, Gefel D, Shpirer I, Woolf E, Hillel J, Feldman MW, Oefner PJ.

Stanford Genome Technology Center, Palo Alto, California 94305-5020, USA.

The Samaritan community, which numbered more than a million in late Roman times and only 146 in 1917, numbers today about 640 people representing four large families. They are culturally different from both Jewish and non-Jewish populations in the Middle East and their origin remains a question of great interest. Genetic differences between the Samaritans and neighboring Jewish and non-Jewish populations are corroborated in the present study of 7,280 bp of nonrecombining Y-chromosome and 5,622 bp of coding and hypervariable segment I (HVS-I) mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences. Comparative sequence analysis was carried out on 12 Samaritan Y-chromosome, and mtDNA samples from nine male and seven female Samaritans separated by at least two generations. In addition, 18-20 male individuals were analyzed, each representing Ethiopian, Ashkenazi, Iraqi, Libyan, Moroccan, and Yemenite Jews, as well as Druze and Palestinians, all currently living in Israel. The four Samaritan families clustered to four distinct Y-chromosome haplogroups according to their patrilineal identity. Of the 16 Samaritan mtDNA samples, 14 carry either of two mitochondrial haplotypes that are rare or absent among other worldwide ethnic groups. Principal component analysis suggests a common ancestry of Samaritan and Jewish patrilineages. Most of the former may be traced back to a common ancestor in the paternally-inherited Jewish high priesthood (Cohanim) at the time of the Assyrian conquest of the kingdom of Israel. Copyright 2004 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
125.
Marie
July 29, 2009 • 2:53 am

londonspirit:

You will get your answer on last accusation very soon. But answer my 1 question

I say:

I will respond to after you answer my last accusation.
126.
londonspirit
July 29, 2009 • 9:54 am

marie may i say you have just got a whole document from a website that i saw tat is against islam. You probably havent even read the information yourself. Do u not understand. I will put it plainly simple for u. According to the bible the samaritans are a mixed race generation tat grouped together many years after the death of moses. Up until the 20th century all encyclopedias used the bible as a reference to determining the startin of the samaritan. But new researches has revealed that the samaritans existed well before that. This information is taken from the full encylopedia of samaritan study. It is simple. So in actual fact the bible is wrong not the quran
127.
londonspirit
July 29, 2009 • 11:14 am

r not. I never said the hadiths are invalid. I said those that contradict the quran are wrong. You obviously cant get grip to the fact that muslims only define that the quran is the word of god. An hadiths are just narrations of what the prophet said an did. Whereby like i said previously it is literally impossible to determine which one is right an which one is wrong as they complied many many years after the death of the prophet. So therefore it is safe to say tat if i believe that a hadith contradicts the quran i can reject it. Now these apostasy killings fully contradict the quran therefore it can be rejected as true. Any way the verses you quote from the quran have all been answered in previous posts. I find it remarkably stupid that people keep quoting the same verses even though it has been answered an even still punte out of context. The verses you quote are in regards to a was. Why dont you do yourself a favour an actually read the verses in context rather than cherry picking the verses from a website tat is solely dedicated to disrupt islam. Further more you posts some videos an write about comments about islam an slavery. Your blinded by your hate of islam an by the media that you cant see outside the scope of what your told an what you see. Who cases who signs the agreement or not. It is the countries that sign the agreements the promote slavery the most. Where do you think all your designer clothes come from. An how much do u think there children get paid to make your clothes an grow the food u eat. In england tesco which is britainr biggest food outlet has just been caught doing child slavery in india. But you choose to ignore that. You dont see me blame christianity on human greed do you. Another example is the famous nike. Have been caught doing child slavery in bangladesh india and indonesia and sri lanka. China does a different form of slavery whereby people have to have 2 jobs just to survive. Look it up rnot. Dont blame religion on human greed.
128.
londonspirit
July 29, 2009 • 11:22 am

an about dead sea scrolls. Why dont you people understand its the content of a scroll that determines if it is the word of god. Not what u find. If you try an justify the authenticity of the bible by saying tablets an scrolls were found dating back to early christianity than i can just say hylogriphics were found of a man holding the son on his head which is the sun god ra. These date back to an earlier time before christianity therefore the religion of the egyptians is right. It sounds stupid. Just like you justifyin the authenticity of the bible like that sounds stupid
129.
R_not
July 29, 2009 • 7:08 pm

londonspirit, I show you surahs that show violence and now you complain. I wrote what muslims have told me about hadiths and didn’t necessarily say you told me that they are invalid, but I just didn’t want to read it again because that is false because your sharia laws are based on the hadiths also, and the koran is nonsensical without them.

So, you get your request met and you whine to me.

Nothing new in a day in islam, I suppose.

Keep in mind that hating islam and hating muslims are two different things. While in islam there is no separation of this. The jihad, to hate, to fight, is against the people – to torture, persecute, enslavement, and murder of them is a-ok since Sharia laws protect the muslim’s right to do such a thing. There will be no consequence if these things are done to them.

And your contempt can be gotten from your posts and your name calling, and denegrating others (I suppose to make yourself feel good) whenever someone disagrees with you. But that is all a part of it – no one is supposed to disagree with you because you are told islam is superior. Superior to what? I deleted what I think it is superior to and won’t submit it to on this thread. But, islam hasn’t shown its superiority in anything except the level of violence against people that it propogates.
130.
R_not
July 29, 2009 • 7:11 pm

londonspirit, what don’t you understand about a koran that a goat ate and left as pellets on the ground and what Uthman ’says’ he copied and then conveniently destroyed the original to show us how phoney the koran is? A god who didn’t care enough to make sure a goat didn’t eat parts of it and make fertilizer out of it, or that a man destroyed the original, or even that it gave it to an illiterate, overly-sexed, murdering thug? Who resembles more a mafia don than a prophet.
131.
R_not
July 29, 2009 • 7:18 pm

If you go to the base teachings of Christianity – it is not based on human greed. While the basic teachings of islam is. The prophet of islam was so greedy he would attack unarmed, or poorly armed, caravans just for its loot and human cargo for slaves.

Jesus tried to tell us we cannot serve two masters (God and riches) via some parables. mohammed killed for riches, and even had a man tortured to get the rest of his wealth that he had hid.

Luke 16:22
Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.

Jesus does not say that both of them went to heaven. He does not say that one of them went to heaven. But it does say that both of them died.

Luke 6:24
But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full.
132.
Demsci
July 29, 2009 • 7:24 pm

LondonSpirit, about those verses that simply relate to war and about the debate on apostasy.

Claude already pointed out that if the verses concerned were only about a contemporary war then that part of Quran is no more than a historybook and why would it be part of Gods word for eternity?

Or we can guess that whenever there is a war going nowadays, and Muslims can call any struggle a war, then the verses suddenly can become applicable today. Can we really trust those Muslims who assure us they do never apply any more?

And Ibn Kammuna and Claude and others told us that important Islamic schools and scholars supported the version that Ibn Kammuna gave about apostasy and you brushed that aside with something like: “Well, anybody can say anything”.

You could not have thrashed Ibn Kammuna but the 2 of you could have reached some sort of draw. But the reason for that is that this message of God should not only be considered looking at what it did or did not mean. But also how effective it was understood and applied, how relevant it even was in world history. And so many times in these debates over Quranic texts there is this big ambiguity, which makes it impossible to win for either side, or even for more than 2 sides, because of more than 2 possible meanings.

And then to think that GOD wants us to rely solely on this message and its supportive HADITHS! I still think it wasn’t GOD who inspired this, but if HE did, then why did HE never amend it, improved it as time went on? There is simply too much reasonable doubt now, HE has NO case against disbelievers after death.

OR maybe, next to the Quran, many other texts from wise thinkers, many other great ideas, were also inspired, and just as much, by HIM? Maybe the Enlightenment Ideas too?
133.
londonspirit
July 29, 2009 • 7:29 pm

DEMSCI i believe IBN KAMMUNA was thrashed because if you read the post you can see that he didnt answer a single one of my rebuttals. But just told me i am lost. That you do not call a draw. You talk about important schools and scholors, let me tell you DEMSCI, these people are constantly changing laws. Why? because people are becoming more educated than before, people are begining to realise the errors in their ways. And you seem to have brushed aside my rebuttal on that in regards to doctors and scholors all agreeing that there are no apostasy laws in islam. Sooner or later these islamic schools will change that.
134.
londonspirit
July 29, 2009 • 7:35 pm

R-NOT like i said actually go and read the verses of the quran, and dont point out verses that have been quoted already by ali sina. because he is just a hatred seeker. You see you just say things like

mohammed killed for riches, and even had a man tortured to get the rest of his wealth that he had hid.But you cant back it up, with the full context. Your going via stupid routes. When you read a book you dont say after reading one sentance that I have read the entire book. So how can you just cherry pick certain verses of the quran and than say this is what islam teaches. This out of context verse picking is getting very boring. I aint narrow minded like you guys otherwise I could do the same in regards to the bible and any other scripture. But i wouldnt do that because it makes no sense. And by the way i dont degrade anyone. I have never abused anyone here, i may have abused comments but not anyone. Unlike you people who abuse my prophet, slander him and many other things with no respect with whom your hurting, just shows how civilized you are.
135.
Arp
July 29, 2009 • 7:54 pm

Hi guys , Please don’t abuse the PEDO , Oops, sorry , Mohammad by telling the truth. He was such a noble man. He was after women/children(girls) / wealth /power, so he was forced to do all the killings and looting. You know he hated all these bad things , But what to do , Alla told him to do and he obeyed .(HBUH).
136.
R_not
July 29, 2009 • 8:24 pm

hahaha – londonspirit get over it. Your prophet was less a man than even a prophet. He actually became less AFTER he thought up islam. And I could quote all the surahs, hadiths, sira, and whatever else is found – and you wouldn’t be happy with it.

The goat(s) achieved what many think about the koran. My hat off to the goat(s).
137.
Marie
July 29, 2009 • 9:39 pm

londonspirit:

marie may i say you have just got a whole document from a website that i saw tat is against islam. You probably havent even read the information yourself. Do u not understand. I will put it plainly simple for u. According to the bible the samaritans are a mixed race generation tat grouped together many years after the death of moses. Up until the 20th century all encyclopedias used the bible as a reference to determining the startin of the samaritan. But new researches has revealed that the samaritans existed well before that. This information is taken from the full encylopedia of samaritan study. It is simple. So in actual fact the bible is wrong not the quran

I say:

So what you got a document that is biased against Christians.

In regards to the Samaritans:

1. Samaria did not exist in the time of Moses. How can a whole group of people already exists if their country did not exist. By the way Samaria was Israel’s capital and Israel as a country did not exist so how could Samaria and the Samaritans already exist in the time of Moses?

2. The Samaritans are descendents of the Jews and gentiles, but the Jews at the time of Moses did not intermingle with gentiles while in Egypt because they were slaves, so how could they already exist at the time of Moses?

3. If they did exist at the time of Moses then how could they be permitted to live outside of Egypt if their forefathers were forbidden to leave Egypt?

4. The Samaritans are descendents of the priestly clan and Moses did not establish the priesthood until after they left Egypt. So how could descendents of the Jewish priests already exist before the priesthood was established?

5. Sargon Claimed in the Assyrian annals that he carried away 27,290 from Samaria, Israel’s capital, and then “the city I rebuilt-I made it greater then it was before. People of the lands which I had conquered I settled therein.

5.
138.
Marie
July 29, 2009 • 10:10 pm

londonspirit the samaritans also accept the Torah which not written down before the time of Moses.

Also the Samaritan Pentateuch says the Samaritans are descendents of the Jewish priestly class which existed after the time of Moses.

londonspirit read Tradition Kept: The Literature Of The Samaritans by Robert T. Anderson. You can review it here at googlebooks:

http://books.google.com/books?id=onFolAET0C8C&pg=PP1&dq=Tradition
139.
londonspirit
July 29, 2009 • 10:10 pm

R-NOT the problem is you cannot bring a single verse from the quran that says to kill the apostates. but i can bring verses from the bible

You cannot bring a single verse from the quran on killing the inncocent. But i can bring such verses from the bible

You cannot bring a single verse from the quran about child molestering. But i can bring such verses from the bible.

You cannot bring a single verse from the quran in regards to slavery. But i can bring such verses from the bible.

I will put in simple words you cannot claim anything in regards to disgracing the quran in context BUT I CAN BRING SUCH VERSES FROM YOUR BIBLE.

So bring your verses if you can, in clear context. None of the mumbo jumbo and i will bring from the bible and lets see who will protect their religion.

If you find a single verses from the quran that teaches any of the following i will leave islam. Thats my challenge.

Like i said no mumbo jumbo but clear verses in context from the quran
140.
londonspirit
July 29, 2009 • 10:12 pm

MARIE i didnt get a document that is biased against christians, i got a document which i read and put down that is taken from the encyclopedia of samaritan study. These people are not muslim and it is these people that say that samaritans existed at the time. It is not the muslims ok.

Get your facts straight. I aint using the quran to justify my claims like your using the bible. I am using information from independent researchers.
141.
Marie
July 29, 2009 • 10:35 pm

Besides londonspirit you just copied and pasted that source from Islamic Awareness. Did you even bother to check it out?
142.
R_not
July 29, 2009 • 10:39 pm

londonspirit, do you have selective blindness? Go back and read the posts. Oh, and I everyone should be fully aware that muslims are to follow their prophet, the ‘perfect example’ and those things are what he did – deception, killing, torture, enslavement, etc. deception, killing, torture, enslavement, etc

And deception, killing, torture, enslavement, etc and/or supporting those that do those things – are all the messages of the koran. Anything that was, or could be, considered peaceful were abrogated by the violent verses. And you guys just keep on posting those abrogated surahs.

And the irony is that doing any of it will guarantee that orgy in the sky – which is a pretty empty idea of heaven if all one is to do is just have sex with virgins and little boys. But, the devil cannot promise anything else, all the devil can promise are carnal desires. And with a god that is the ‘greatest of deceivers’, I wouldn’t expect too much of any of it if I were you.
143.
R_not
July 30, 2009 • 1:15 am

In one post, Londonspirit wrote: ‘You obviously cant get grip to the fact that muslims only define that the quran is the word of god.’ And other posts he keeps saying that information is gotten from ’sites that hate islam’.

Well, if god was so concerned about its word to you then he would have made sure that it was preserved and not left as either ashes since Uthman destroyed what was left of the original (who knows if he was true to what he did recover in your current koran) or goat’s pellets, consistent, and coherent.

And as for your idea of anyone who gets anything from a ‘hate site’, including Mr. Sina being hateful – we only get this stuff from your own texts. I know I wrote this before and it seems that I will probably have to write it a thousand and one more times because you are not getting it. There is no other documentation, anywhere, about mohammed except from islam’s texts.

The whole problem – that you have – is that this interrupts your da’wa. Too bad it doesn’t interrupt your faith in a guy, a book and a god that is just plain evil. Not even devil worshipers go out and attack and kill like muslims do for their god, you know the ‘allahu akbar’ they have on their lips before doing their evil deeds, shove their beliefs onto others, or even pretend that it is anything other than devil worship. They are at least honest about it which is ironic since they are also worshiping the ‘Prince of Lies’.

I have thought about this quite a bit, and the devil won’t come out as some freakish, looking monster because it would scare people away and anyone would see its true nature. Instead it comes as a ’smooth talker’, something whose appearance doesn’t frighten people away and who hid its true nature, and it promises anything of this earth, just as Jesus said it would. It can only promise what it tried to tempt Jesus with – wealth, power, etc.

And for centuries the wealth was gotten by raids, enslaving people, persecuting Jews and others and taking it from their Churches and their persons, and the ones that didn’t get the wealth – mohammed realized that he had to promise it in the afterlife. An empty promise of one who wasn’t even certain that he would get to that orgy in the sky.

We are warned of this quite often in the Bible and I have already posted those passages – that you are probably not reading. You don’t read them because it doesn’t come from your islamic websites. Why would they? It would not serve their purpose for to know even though your own koran says to read the Bible, read surah 10:94.

And you are bothered that we probably know your koran better than most and that is not an accepted thing for infidels to know. The order to not take the koran with muslims when they go to infidel lands still stands – from a god that was so stupid it didn’t foresee the internet, or the USA. 1400 years of muslims being spoiled in keeping infidels ignorant, or even your own fellow muslims, has been halted. I know that many lands still kill the infidel for knowing, or discussing, anything islam but the word is getting out.
144.
Demsci
July 30, 2009 • 9:00 am

LondonSpirit, you have a great spirit, and you are a very zealous fighters, with thoughts, words, arguments. It seems to me you are practicing your life-purpose here. But many of the originators and visitors of FFI, including me, also might be acting out their life-purpose.

And to me it seems that what is at stake in the discussions in which Islam is involved is the power over the hearts and minds of all humans and the way how to organize all societies, and weather to do so in freedom or with the use of force. In the 21st century. And Islam is A. already very powerful in the Islamic countries. B. seemingly expanding in the Democratic countries, and potentially capable of expanding tremendously there. It is in the context of this world-wide, 21st-century-struggle why M.A. Khan wants to “Shame the Muslims out of Islam”. In my opinion FFI has a legitimate, justified “power-purpose/ motivation” and not just some “hate-motivation”.

There are many big and small religions who vie for power over the hearts and minds of people and ways to organize societies against powerful Islam. It’s not just Christianity (to which a lot of Ex-Muslims belong). And one of the other groups is the group of the Darwinists, atheists, (to which many other ex-Muslims belong).
That group is formed by many people, among them Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Daniel Dennett, Steven Pinker and so many others, among them many scientist. This group is who I love and wish much success. In just, democratic societies all around the world.

So it is not enough for the Muslims just to “beat’ the Christians, because the Darwinists won’t be impressed by that. They rely much on ongoing Scientific discoveries (including Historical ones) and on other moral and value-systems.

Now, the 3 mainstreams” religions, ways of living I mention, Islam, Christianity and Darwinism, all comment on the truthfulness and the usefulness of their points of view, in comparison of that of their competitors. Inevitably Science disputes both Christianities and Islam’s claims on truthfulness. But on usefulness, which arguably has to have highest priority, it is in my view primarily about ways of organising society, in a democratic or a theocratic way. And in that respect Darwinists and Christians by and large seem to concur. And there are now also forces in the Islamic world at work in favor of Democracy and against Theocracy or any form of dictatorship. And these forces are such welcome allies to Democratic people, organisations, like those in FFI.

Yes, I think Christians, Darwinists and many other religions, life-views
I. Are defending themselves against even more power to an Islam, that in big part seems intent on bringing about theocratic ways of organizing societies, inevitably intent on using force, curbing freedom.
II. Vie for the current power of Islam, especially in the Islamic countries, and I think they have a right to that. Especially because they aim to do so in an honest, just, non-violent, beneficial manner and because they only aim for equal rights, opportunities for all people, so for much freedom. As opposed to domination of one group over other groups, using much force. And in our opinion Islam definitely is, in some parts of the world, guilty of that. These purposes-motivations are, it seems to me, among others, behind sites like FFI, and they are using all available information and logical arguments, including Islamic holy texts to the tiniest detail.

What will the 21st century bring/ see? Will the Islam even become more powerful? At the cost of Christianity, Darwinism and all others? Because no matter how you look at it, it has already shown tremendous staying and expanding power in 632-2009, it has beaten Christianity many times in the past and it has gobbled up incredible amounts of its land and hearts and minds of its followers. Or will the other faiths curb the power of Islam and even conquer big chunks of it?

The above is of course only a very broad and incomplete view and I am open to much amending and improving it.
145.
Demsci
July 30, 2009 • 9:30 am

Marie, and LS too, thanks for the very interesting information about the Samaritans. For me it was like reading very interesting history-books. I already was familiar with much of history, but not with these details.

R-not, you use really great arguments; about the hadiths being inseparable from the Quran, and anyway historical sources, about the material about the life of Muhammad coming only from Islamic holy scriptures. I saw the links you provided. One of them was elaborating on a Quran-text about allowing having sex with MARRIED women, who are slaves. And you talked about Muslims being bothered we know and use their own holy texts so well. Well, they are the possession of all mankind, not just of the Muslims, to study and to judge, as well of course as to use in a beneficial way, as many Muslims assure us they are.

While I do not agree with all of your points, I am getting great reassurance from many good points you make, either confirming my thoughts, or opening my eyes for new great thoughts.
146.
R_not
July 30, 2009 • 3:10 pm

Thanks Demsci. I actually don’t expect anyone to agree, in fact, I hope that I shock people into reading the islamic texts for themselves.

I was just like the next guy who was ignorant about islam before 9/11. I knew that we were getting attacked by muslims time and again, and especially during my time in the USMC our guys were attacked big time in Beirut, but I just wasn’t putting it all together.

What made me start reading was after 9/11, I would watch muslimettes recite this line time and again, and it there was always something unsettling about their statements, their demeanor, or something. They would say something like this: ‘Muslims don’t believe in suicide bombing and the killing of any innocent’. It reminded me of double talk when the reporter would try to pinpoint them as to the killing of an AMERICAN innocent – civilians, children, etc. None of them would say ‘AMERICAN innocent’.

So, I started my quest and what I found out disgusted me more than I can say. Of course that muslimette wouldn’t say it – because muslims only think muslims are innocent. And it just went downhill from there. islam isn’t a religion, but it uses religious rites and a god to justify their political agenda. And too many muslims just accept it because of the aura of holiness that wraps around the vile political agenda of conquest, fighting, and chaos and death.
147.
londonspirit
July 30, 2009 • 5:28 pm

demsci why u afraid of the muslims. U afraid of people that live mainly in 3rd world countries whereby they have one meal every 2 days or so. But u dont seem to be afraid of the people the start the wars. Rnot mate u r blinded. U seem to pinpoint certain people carryin out stupid attacks but u r blinded by the 1 billion or so who live in peace. An the thing that is also fuelin ur hatred is this site. If i had the same stupid mentality like you i can blame all blacks for crime an murder as they commit the most. I can blame all christians for deception as the white people are the biggest scamers. An thieves. U want me to continue. Fortunantly i dont have tat same stupid mentality. No one person has stepped up to my challenge here which just goes to show that it is jealousy or hate which you want to spread to other nations
148.
R_not
July 30, 2009 • 5:58 pm

The myth that terrorism is carried out by only poor people is apparent in such people as bin Laden from a multi-millionaire’s family, his #2 Zawahiri, a doctor. The Wahabbis are helped along by Saudi billionaires, many doctors and other businessmen and college students caught in the West and are now in prisons or sit awaiting their days in court.

muslim charities who everyone thinks as being benign are just the fronts for funding the jihadists. Saddam, the Saudis, Iran, and money flowing from other muslims worldwide fund the jihadists and give to the families of the suicide bombers, or anyone dying while fighting. that is ‘muslim charity’.

As with all the other twisted facts that are perpetrated by muslims, with the help of our left wing liberals, the myth that all of this is just because of poor, uneducated muslims.

While no muslim is doing anything about the Taliban destroying over 50 schools in Afghanistan. Ironic, all muslim nations sit by and watch that happen along with Saddam’s murderous rampage, the ‘plight’ of the Palestinians – oh, let us not forget the Egyptians built a fence to keep them out of their lands too and the only ones who gave them any aid during the israelis finally fighting back after hamas (and Hezbollah) lob bombs into their country on a daily basis are the Israelis and the Americans. And all that aid while all we heard from the muslims worldwide is how evil Israel and America is while Hamas hides behind children, in their schools, and mosques.

I won’t go into the muslims, regular muslims that are not affiliated with the Taliban are also destroying Christian Churches and stealing lands from Christians and persecuting them also in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere.

(Qur’an:33:26 “Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before.”)

We got CAIR, the MSA (a Muslim brotherhood recruiting tool), and other organizations who are very wealthy who intimidate people via lawsuits and other ways.

Qur’an:8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”

Qur’an:8:57 “If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.”

Qur’an:8:67 “It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.”

Qur’an:7:3 “Little do you remember My warning. How many towns have We destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them.”

Here we find the reason for all of the terror:
Bukhari:V5B59N401 “Allah’s Wrath became severe on anyone the Prophet killed in Allah’s Cause.”

Ironic that LondonSpirit blames blacks for a high crime rate and Christians for deception when in fact it is his own ‘muslim brothers and sisters’ who have those honors. In the Philippines, it isn’t the Christians aiming bombs as the muslims, but over 10,000 bombs have been aimed at unarmed civilians by muslims. It isn’t the Hindus who aim at muslim women and children in India, but muslims who aim at unarmed civilians. It is the Hamas who most muslims idolize that are aiming bombs at unarmed civilians into Israel, as with Hezbollah in Lebanon who carried on a campaign of terror against lebonese Christians for decades now. (read; Because They Hate, Brigette Gabriel)

And ironically, the group that kills the most muslims are… muslims.
149.
R_not
July 30, 2009 • 6:04 pm

And if we want to blame the poor and uneducated in islam for all these crimes against humanity then we should as WHY are they poor and uneducated?

Why aren’t the oil rich muslim nations throwing billions at them instead of into the West to build more mosques, etc? The muslims could use structures already built and rent them until they raise enough money themselves while the other money could go to feed their own poor and educate them.

And as for muslim education, I already mentioned the muslims doing nothing about the Taliban who are destroying schools, but the schools left intact are nothing but 8 hours of nothing but koran memorization and other koran related teachings. Then the other time spent on jihad motiviation and training. No wonder the societies become stagnate and backwards, and then they take half their workforce and make them into a sort of ’slave class’, only one step above the dhimmis and the real slaves. The largest export besides oil in Saudi Arabia are jihadists and wahabbi trained clerics. The degree most sought after in Saudi Arabia is some sort of ‘islamic studies’ which doesn’t make for good job training so they go to the next step of getting their jihadist training in Pakistan and then on to who knows where to continue.

A few years ago the USA alone had over 1,000 saudi funded mosques and madrassas with wahabbi exported clerics. I am sure it has grown from that number.
150.
Marie
July 30, 2009 • 8:49 pm

Demsci:

Marie, and LS too, thanks for the very interesting information about the Samaritans. For me it was like reading very interesting history-books. I already was familiar with much of history, but not with these details.

I say:

You’re welcome.
151.
Marie
July 30, 2009 • 8:58 pm

R_Not:

Why aren’t the oil rich muslim nations throwing billions at them instead of into the West to build more mosques, etc? The muslims could use structures already built and rent them until they raise enough money themselves while the other money could go to feed their own poor and educate them.

I say:

Here’s another important question: Where is all that foreign aid from the U.S. going to?
152.
R_not
July 30, 2009 • 10:26 pm

Marie, because our politicians are just plain – STUPID! They chose ignorance – and we currently have a President, Barack Hussein Obama, who was raised as a muslim, and you know that Christian Church he attended? Well, he was never baptized a Christian – he is still a muslim. AND he was raised in one of the more fundamental strains of islam. Barack Hussein Obama is being caught in more lies than flies in a flycatcher. No one thought it was important that we should take a look at his friends and associates – the most stupid thought that I ever heard and read. (He has paid, so far, over $900,000 to keep his birth certificate sealed – and that battle is still going)

Clinton is no better. She is in lala land about the muslim nations too. Just about as stupid as her husband who had us helping muslims slaughter more Christians in Bosnia/Kosovo. But, they know where the money is – they all get, or got, a lot of money from the Saudi billionaires.

I don’t know about anyone else – I write my politicians all the time. But I got two gems – Boxer and Feinstein. I cannot figure out who is voting for these two. Well, yeah I know who is voting for them – all the people whose brains are in lala land. I can’t get into California politics – it would take pages!
153.
Marie
July 30, 2009 • 10:54 pm

R_Not:

Clinton is no better. She is in lala land about the muslim nations too. Just about as stupid as her husband who had us helping muslims slaughter more Christians in Bosnia/Kosovo. But, they know where the money is – they all get, or got, a lot of money from the Saudi billionaires.

I say:

What do ya expect? The Clintons are corrupt. Do you know where Clinton got some of his founding for his library? Hint: The first letter starts with an S and is in the Middle East.

R_Not:

I can’t get into California politics – it would take pages!

I say:

Thank God I don’t live in Cali. NY government is bad but Cali is worse.
154.
srizals
July 31, 2009 • 12:53 am

Erm. I comin 4 u girlz after this. Marie n R_not. Typical Americans. Erm. Not like the Brits. Hang on girls. Dodge me.
155.
srizals
July 31, 2009 • 1:28 am

Before I begin this, may I know whom am I facing. The Japanese had this habit of knowing their opponents in their swords duel. The names and the clan of their enemies. I love their way of the warriors. Can’t say the same of your valiant baby killers, sex lunatics, torturers and rapist of Iraqi girls and choppers of their rape victims and butchers of all her family members in uniform that called themselves ‘brave’ soldiers.

Well, your history and conducts do influence on your ways of thinking, your worldviews, the ‘free’
Americans, Ex Masters of Muslim African slaves n ruled by the Zionist. Terminators of the Braves of the Red Indian, their offsprings and their buffaloes. Nukers of the Japanese. Slayers of the Vietnemese villagers.

The Australian, laughing like the sounds of thunder, bad sense of humour, love to sneak on others’ businesses n act like they were more above the Asians, tamer of the Aboriginies, Masters in the lands not of their own, Outcast of the Great Britain. Well, at least they have one thing in common with the ‘mighty’ American whites.

New Zealander, ermm..I can’t find anything bad about u guys…yet. Hope I would never find one. So like the Kiwis, I can say you are different from the snobbish thunderous laughing Australian.

The deluded Hindus, slayers, sorry burners of weeping widows and master of suicides. Saints of rolling freak that thinks he is making the world a better place by making himself dizzy, rolling on dirt and cow dungs. Drinker of cow piss and bathes in them too, to aa…clense their souls from the dirty errr.. desires of kama sutra…hmm..Haters of the Sultan that had saved them from self destruction mode. Liars that dwell in the lands of the Malay.

I still can’t forget a chap that I met, his laughter, n the way he poked his nose on local issues, n of course his bad sense of humour. Well, not all of them, some are just the average Joes like me, n yes, I like these Australians.
What? Do u think I’m like u? Master of the most simple Scientific thinking skills – Making Generalisations and that is all to it?
Simplistic mind won’t get u anywhere but to pit of troubles, trust me.

Do you know the code of Bushido?, Another thing from the east. The way of the brave Japanese warriors of course. Well, they have this habit of knowing their enemies before they engaged in swords duel. I love their brave ways. The way of the warrior.

No, you don’t get to copy them, you are the..erm..cowardly baby killers in uniform and your grandson got to gloat with their friends, like, “What?? Your grandpa fought the brave Babylonians? He got to murder and raped Iraqis and chopped and burn her sliced remains and killed all of her family?

Geez, my grandpa only got to blow the children of Afghanistan to pieces with fancy carpet bombs. Only their deadly WMD slippers are left intact!”

This is me.
I still can’t erase the images of Jewish children signing bombs before they were dropped on who else?, children too. Well the Christian and Muslim Palestinians of course, but don’t bother, they are trash anyway and like the homeless, stayed and begged on someone’s else property eh?

Yeah, yeah, I do understand that freak statement, we gotta right to live, coz we are err..the chosen people of god, you goyyim gotta right to die miserably, see, cause we got all the nukes, and uncle sam is with us, AIPAC, CFI, British ‘balls’ and they all love our money, sorry, our truthfully right passed down thousands of years ago when David slew Goliath, remember cattle people?
What? U got question it seems, well, don’t ever asked about Goliath. He was a monster from Mars and his followers were aliens in Palestine.

What? Still not satisfied with all the money we gave u? We gave u more than enough, money and porn from our filthy rich Jewish bankers n ponzy n hedge funds managers n the loveable Jewish porn kings, (I do mean it literally).

I am a teacher from the lands of the Malay. Descendants of the hulubalang, Malay warriors with dagger like knife, curvaceous n short. Coz, we love to be close with our enemies. Especially baby killers. I am the Defender of the truth. Killer of lies. Glad to make your acquaintances, Blinded Hate Liars!
156.
R_not
July 31, 2009 • 2:17 am

Someone isn’t taking their medication!

let me see, the ones who are hateful liars are those who quote from islam’s texts, and relay islamic history. And the ones who have the aura of holiness around them are the ones who do the atrocious deeds while blaming the Jews, the Americans, etc. blah blah blah and when you don’t have anything else just use bash. And it seems the bashing is all over the board tonight.

Peaceful Quran Verses of the Week

Sura (2:191-193) – “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]…and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.”

Sura (8:12) – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

Sura (8:39) – “And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah”

Surah (5:51)-O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

(and keep in mind that ‘persecution’ in islam means that they cannot kill, or subjugate us. ‘oppression’ means they cannot just wage their violent jihad, they are monitored because they preach hatred against others just because they are not a muslim, and maybe the host population don’t want their vile ‘religion’ imposed on them.)
157.
Marie
July 31, 2009 • 2:49 am

Here’s my response to srizals nonsense:

My secret identity is superkitty and superkitty is here to vanquish all evil using my superkitty powers. Watch everyone because superkitty is ready to pounce evil. MEOW!
158.
Demsci
July 31, 2009 • 3:28 am

LondonSpirit, I like us to look global and into the 21st century. And to consider that there are Muslims and there are followers of other faiths, even including the followers of no faith, the atheists, as some kind of faith-followers.

Now, especially after 9/11, the Ex-Muslims have arisen as a phenomenom. And they are assisted by other Islam-critics. Now the followers of other faiths can choose for ex-Muslims over Muslims or vice versa or remain neutral.

It is very important that the ex-Muslims are only for curbing the tremendous power of Islam over hearts and minds of mankind, in favor of this power of the other faiths. But they guarantee equal rights and opportunities everywhere for Muslims and they consider them as innocent, lovable and respectable as all other humans. They only dislike it that they believe in and follow Islam, but they guarantee them that right also.

Now the ex-Muslims offer us followers of other faiths a lot of much better deals than the Muslims do. The ex-Muslims want democracy everywhere, whereas the Muslims mostly prefer some sort of Sharia law, or some form of theocracy and they acguiesce in the tyrannical rules of most Islamic countries. The ex-Muslims want equal rights for women, whereas in many Islamic countries men have much power and distinct advantages over women. The ex-Muslims are fully prepared to let followers of other faiths become Muslims, but in Islamic countries apostasy is punishable by law, even with capital punishment, and apostasy is not accepted by family and society. The ex-Muslims are prepared to forgive the Israeli’s for stealing back their home-land and to come to some sort of just arrangement with them. The Muslims, who stole so much land from the followers of other lands, arrogantly don’t feel themselves guilty of that and still won’t forgive the Israeli’s for stealing back their ancient land, which is only a tiny speck on the map.

Yes, I think it is legitimate and logical if the followers of other faiths now choose the Ex-Muslims over the Muslims. And there is no need for the Muslims to feel guilty or bad about their own beliefs, behavior or positions. It is just in their interest to consider offering the followers of other faiths much better deals than they are offering them now, otherwise the other-faith-followers are likely to join the Ex-Muslims.
159.
Demsci
July 31, 2009 • 3:57 am

Exactly R-not,

What a sign of weakness of that Malay guy, just being able to bash and abuse, giving totally one-sided history-lessons, which are no more than Islamic propaganda.

About the past, in say 5000 years of recorded history, we can say:
I. The Muslims did worse than the rest of humanity.
II. The non-Muslims did worse than the Muslims.
III. All human groups did at one time or another extremely bad deeds but also many good deeds. Between the Muslims and the Westerners/ Hindus/ Jews etc. we may really call it a draw.

Now we like to promote position I but it is often a very difficult position to maintain. But we certainly have very good arguments against position II. We certainly can argue very well why Muslims by and large were NOT better than the average other human group!
160.
Demsci
July 31, 2009 • 4:11 am

By the way, R-not and Marie, with all due respect.

Of course our democratic system is riddled with faults and shortcomings. And so are our representatives, leaders. But it is very important to retain a good perpective. Obama and Clinton, fallible, faulty, little humans as they are, were the choice of a majority of Americans, they represent and endorse many of the ideals of democracy and enlightenment. And if we criticize our own leaders and the choice of our own population too much, it weakens our criticism of those who are opposed to democracy and are against enlightenment-ideals.

Let us not act like all those spoiled myopic people who only look at local conditions, without big gobal and historical perspective. After all, remember the song: “I beg your pardon, I never promised you a rose-garden”.
161.
srizals
July 31, 2009 • 4:17 am

Are you a pornstar or something super kitty, meow…horny aren’t we…Do you know Shasha Grey?
Aahh.. at last a christian that really reads the koran… hmmm..I’m impressed with u girls. Hang out tight girls, the slayer of lies are here. Watch out now. Don’t hurt or sprained your beautiful naked, sorry, delicate brains now.
162.
R_not
July 31, 2009 • 4:21 am

Demsci wrote, ‘It is just in their interest to consider offering the followers of other faiths much better deals than they are offering them now, otherwise the other-faith-followers are likely to join the Ex-Muslims.’

I don’t think the muslims pushing their agenda onto others are as enlightened as your thoughts would wish them to be. Individuals might be, or might become enlightened, but overall – we would have to infiltrate the ranks of their training camps, their schools, etc. Oh gee – what they do to us to push their garbage onto us!

And even then it would be harder to do in their world since everyone sets themselves up as judge, jury and executioner, if need be. Sharia laws are ok with all of that too. It is basically why there is such barbaric brutality in their lands. And also why the statistics for their barbaric acts are not recorded because they don’t consider them a statistic to be counted. And the muslims use that lack of numbers as a way to tell us how morally superior they are over us (if anyone is stupid enough to accept their claims) because they will tell us that crimes are high in our countries because we count such things and they do not.

But your post makes more sense as to why we accept former muslims so easily. Actually, we accepted muslims easy too – until we kept getting attacked by them. And then we finally woke up to what was happening worldwide, and even what was happening on our own shores and realized we could very easily go the way of other countries who have a build up of muslims in their lands. The first ‘face’ or facade of them is peacefulness, acceptance, etc – then as their numbers build up it starts to change. the article goes more into what happens.

% of muslims and % of violence directed against non-muslims:
http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=4DE15EF9-A76C-4DD4-81E2-75683AEED74D

and/or

Dr. Peter Hammond’s book
‘Slavery, Terrorism & Islam: The Historical Roots & Contemporary Threat’
163.
srizals
July 31, 2009 • 4:22 am

Ahh, Demsci, a what kinda a guy are you, or are u a mutant? Need history lessons eh, oh, u going to get it, boy.
164.
srizals
July 31, 2009 • 4:26 am

R_not, if u don’t play nice, I would have to eat my promise 2 u girl.
165.
srizals
July 31, 2009 • 4:30 am

To the catholics, anglican, I’m trying to get some sense out of them. To u guys. Pure bashing.
166.
R_not
July 31, 2009 • 4:32 am

Demsci, nice try – but Obama is nothing but a pack of lies and has outdone even the Clintons. And it is our duty as Americans to make sure people know the truth and not walk around in starry-eyed adulation of those two. Even though they want that adulation… gag.

He has taken Saudi money by the millions, and other foreign sources of money – all illegal. And he has paid over $900,000+ to keep his birth certificate closed. And we can forget any congressional investigation since they are as starry-eyed as a srizal over the prospects of some porno.

I still like your posts though, so don’t take me wrong. Please don’t tell me, a person who gave 7+ years in the USMC, that I should be quiet on what this president is all about. It is no wonder that so far a couple of officers and at least one enlisted person that I know of won’t do what the President says, they have rejected orders, because they think he is illegally in that office (due to the questions on his birth records).
167.
srizals
July 31, 2009 • 4:45 am

I wonder if all the black Africans, descendants of the slaves stolen sorry kidnapped illegally by the Americans back then have birth records. Erm, R_not? Yeah, yeah, u purified your sins not by the blood of the son of god, but your own blood, I have to say I salute u 4 that. But really? Gosh, Obama goin to have a hard time keeping his words to the Muslims, it seems.. hmm interesting.
168.
ibnsahr
July 31, 2009 • 4:52 am

We got all sort of sick mind muslims in here but srizals completely another different one, he is mentally challenged, I rather abusive comments, but this guy plainly moron, what..? a teacher?
169.
srizals
July 31, 2009 • 6:21 am

aah, ibnsahr, Yes, I am a teacher. N I’m going to teach u a lesson of course, but u r lucky. Azan is calling me in the distant. Catch u later smartie pants. Gotta meet my maker. Go get some booze and some ganja while waiting up for me. Love u, Ur stupidity I mean. Geez, this is easier than I expected. I thought the British was snobbish, but u Americans and Atheist, Oh man, I’m gonna teach u a lesson u ain’t never goin 2 4get. Asta la vista baby!
170.
londonspirit
July 31, 2009 • 12:04 pm

R-NOT you gave a few verses. When are you people ever going to learn to quote in context. Lets start with the first verse you quote:

(Qur’an:33:26 “Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before.”)

You quote this verse but you do not ask yourself the question on why did this happen so.

‘The punishment toward (the Jewish tribe) Banu Quraizah who betrayed and assisted the allies was handed down by Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him to Sa’ad bin Mu’ads. The verdicts: They were sentenced to death, the women were made slaves (captives), and their lands were divided among the Muhajirins. The decision was made as such based on the laws of the Old Testament, Deuteronomy 20:13-14

‘13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

Qur’an:8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”

That is not the tranlsation of 8:12, it shows that you just copied and pasted this and the rest of the verse without actually rverify what the verse actually says.

Qur’an:8:57 “If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.”

Do you not see the word battle in this verse. Doesnt this indicate to you that these people were at war. When your at war you do not kiss and make up you no. You fight. and in those days they had swords not pistol and machine guns, so obviously words such as slay would be used. And again this is not the actual translation of the verse.

008.056 Those of them with whom thou madest a treaty, and then at every opportunity they break their treaty, and they keep not duty (to Allah).
008.057 If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those � who are behind them, that haply they may remember.

As you see talking about those who break the peace treaty.

Qur’an:8:67 “It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.”

Again relating to war.read in context

008.066 Now hath Allah lightened your burden, for He knoweth that there is weakness in you. So if there be of you a steadfast hundred they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a thousand (steadfast) they shall overcome two thousand by permission of Allah. Allah is with the steadfast.
008.067 It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. Ye desire the lure of this world and Allah desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
008.068 Had it not been for an ordinance of Allah which had gone before, an awful doom had come upon you on account of what ye took.

Slaughter is killing those at war. Why i say this, its because from the above verse you can yes again in relation to the same war as the previous verse.

Qur’an:7:3 “Little do you remember My warning. How many towns have We destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them.”

Again this is the war in relation to when muhammed and his followers found out about a secret ambush to attack them, so he attacked them before they could attack him. Self defence mate.

At least muhammed had intellegence to attack someone that was actually gonna attack them. Unlike the americans who have so much technology and yet they say IRAQ gonna nuke them in 45 mins, so they start an all out war on the country. And do they find nukes. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
171.
londonspirit
July 31, 2009 • 12:08 pm

IBNSAHR your getting sick of muslims. I am getting sick and tired of you guys quoting the same verses over and over and over again. its getting really boring now.
172.
londonspirit
July 31, 2009 • 12:10 pm

DEMSCI: Of course our democratic system is riddled with faults and shortcomings. And so are our representatives, leaders. But it is very important to retain a good perpective.

ANSWER: Well done demsci you admitted to my whole purpose on here, that it is individuals who make things corrupt not religion, or in your case not the purpose of true democrats. What have i been saying all along, dont blame religion for individual actions. Now your saying dont blame democratics for individuals who take advantage of the system.

WELL DONE
173.
londonspirit
July 31, 2009 • 12:12 pm

R-NOT

This is what you wrote in one post of the translation of 8:12

Qur’an:8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”

And this is what you wrote in your newer post

Sura (8:12) – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

Which one is right
174.
londonspirit
July 31, 2009 • 12:13 pm

R-NOT

This is what you wrote in one post of the translation of 8:12

Qur’an:8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”

And this is what you wrote in your newer post

Sura (8:12) – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

Which one is right

learn to cross refernce mate

And marie still waiting for the answer to my one single question.
175.
Demsci
July 31, 2009 • 3:52 pm

No, LondonSpirit, I didn’t exactly say or mean what you thought.

System: I. Islam, unamended, unimproved. And II. Democratic system, open to improvement.

Now they are both implemented on Earth. But both are fallible, faulty manmade systems with many faults and shortcomings, I think.

Individuals will exhibit, perform always bad and good behavior but the system aims to improve this human behavior. So it will both want to encourage good behavior and curb bad behavior. And the system should be judged on its effectiveness to achieve that, and on how much of that it achieves.

As I said both systems are fallible, faulty with shortcomings, but Democrats understand this of democracy, they keep improving and amending their laws, and parts of the system. The system isn;t holy, good results is what counts. And improvement can only be achieved on systems that are perceived as imperfect, fallible, faulty, not on systems perceived to be already perfect and unchangeable. I think the strength of a system is first and foremost it’s ability to improve, hence it’s ability to admit its faults and shortcomings.

Now do you ever say: Of course Islam is riddled with faults and shortcomings? Which I do about Democratic system? No, you keep saying: Do not blame Islam for what individuals do. So you seem to imply your Islamic system IS perfect, unchangeable. And nothing we point out to you about it’s faults and shortcomings you acknowledge. Whereas I say: Please blame democratic system for what individuals do, so that we can improve and amend it. And I see an unimproved, unamended Islamic system as much more faulty, with much more shortcomings. I only see the democratic system as the best system of its kind so far.

You see if you did admit that the unamended, unimproved Islamic system did cause faulty, bad behavior, you would then be able to improve and amend it. And that would make it better. Now in effect you admit that Islam is just not that effective, because maybe 1,2 billion Muslims behave normal (but on average not exceptionally good) but also many, many Muslims act agressive, oppressive, bad etc. even in your own eyes, and Islam is not capable or very effective in changing that behavior. But, due to the God-given status Muslims give to the Islamic system, you don’t even want to try improve or amend it at all, which is something we democrats and our scientists see as primary, something which we love to do.
176.
R_not
July 31, 2009 • 5:17 pm

londonspirit, those surahs are more a part of what was left after the goats made their pellets out of the missing parts than the surahs that you quote continually. The surahs you quote continuously are abrogated – replaced – by the violence and nastiness that we quote.

I didn’t take anything out of context, in fact, you needed either the hadith or sira to fill in the blanks to understand it (which I said that is why the hadith and sira are indeed valid). And we see how a guy behaves when his paranoid, narcissistic self needs to bull doze down a people just because they didn’t want his newly thought up religion. And let us not forget what mohammed did to those people – killed all the men and all the boys ‘with hair’ and enslaved/raped the rest of them and stole their goods, and lands.

For no other reason than mohammed’s paranoid self needing to be gratified.

This is not an example of any man that anyone should follow, but we do see the ages that people do indeed follow men like this. We saw it with Stalin and Hitler, Mao, Che, just to give a few examples.

In the battles of mohammed against the Quraysh we also have another stunning example of what muslims do – renege on cease fires, or peace treaties. They are told to not keep their promises, to deceive us. To get back to fighting as soon as they are rearmed/regrouped. To even attack children.

yep – some example of a profit, oh er I mean prophet.
177.
R_not
July 31, 2009 • 5:48 pm

I was just thinking about this and how the muslims react when we show them that we know about abrogation so we don’t quote those surahs that were replaced, like they do to try to fool us.

Well, they get angry at us and we read, and hear, how they bash us for not falling (probably like they did if they reverted) for such nonsense.

Why aren’t they angry at either the ones who fooled them, or even allah and mohammed since neither could make up their minds about what message they wanted to convery, or at themselves for being duped into such a nasty, old ‘religion’ with such a nasty, old profit -oops, keep writing profit when I should write prophet. Maybe it was all that loot and all those slaves that he lusted after that makes me slip!
178.
Marie
July 31, 2009 • 8:35 pm

srizals:

Are you a pornstar or something super kitty, meow…horny aren’t we…Do you know Shasha Grey?
Aahh.. at last a christian that really reads the koran… hmmm..I’m impressed with u girls. Hang out tight girls, the slayer of lies are here. Watch out now. Don’t hurt or sprained your beautiful naked, sorry, delicate brains now.

I say:

OMG I start joking around pretending to be a feline heroine called superkitty and this is what srizals can think of. Typical perverted Muslim mindset.
179.
srizals
July 31, 2009 • 9:00 pm

R_not, could u plz provide statistics of the death tolls inflicted by Muhammad during the establishments of Islam in Arabia to shame me plz? U r not that good debater eh? Just good quoters of lies n twisted truth n cut n paste kinda book freak eh?

U can also add up to the death tolls for the spreading of Islam throughout the world n during the crusades when Saladin annihilated the mighty Crusaders to really, really shame me out of Islam n made me out of words or at least really made me thinking of the hideous ways of Christians, sorry , Muslims in the events of history of mankind or recent events in Maluku just within our time by the Christian Batak in Indonesia, girl. N do include Muslim Pattani slaughtered by eh, peaceful loving Buddhist Thais whores n sex maniacs in uniforms.

The opium traders that crippled the Chinese weren’t spices traders U know, U, failures of History 101, cutie little pie. N while u r at it, plz include the death tolls of the kind Muslims, Jews, Christians n the rest of mankind in Bosnia, Palestine, Mindanao, Pattani, Russia, France, China especially in Xin Jiang during the revolutions of the Christians that always like trying something new and amend their religion n understanding of the human rights, eh? Demsci?

Compared the death tolls by the Irgun n Lehman baby killers n slayers of the weak Palestinians and British soldiers during the creation of the definition of the word, terrorist in the British dictionary. Or by another groups that like to amend their religion and broken the covenant of God with them. Compare this bloody statistics with hundred of years of pogroms by always thinking Christians that always trying to improve themselves n their understanding of the world.

In the betterment of their killing machines and bombs to cause more deadly injuries and not just simply death by white phosphorous and depleted uranium bombs. You bonehead, hell riders kinda of people eh. hmmm……

R_not, if I were u, I would be very2 careful what I’m writing here, coz C, I’m gonna misquote u like u r misquoting the words of our God, sorry my God. Who was exactly your God, R_not? Do u really know your god and your pornographic bible?

What did the reformist in Russia did to the Russians during their amendments period eh, by whom? Muslim Russians? The golden tribes?

Geez, where were u guys when the strongest army in the world light up the sky of the biggest concentration camps that rival the death camps of the Nazi, another Christian reformist eh, Demsci? U see, these people believer in following the hideous ways of reformers or sick bastards that like to try new things to improve themselves just like Demsci eh? While u r at it, include the death toll by the famine caused by Christians in Sudan, of course Muslim government got the blame; u r smart I give u that: smart liars twisters of the truth that is, to be precise. N don’t forget the Hutu n Tutsi in their reform period. N last but not least, the peaceful Khmer Buddhist cum reform communists…Good luck liars…. Geez. Who r u guys actually. Mutants? Heartless robots? Mindless aliens? Wonder pets? Why don’t u reveal urself if u really think u r in the right, n I’m in the wrong. Geez…these people are more cowards than the Brits who thinks they r still the masters of the Malays.

N the rest of u deluded guys. Hush, Hush, or I got to bang u some more n u don’t have anything to rebuke me with. Dullards! Shame on u! Quit being a Hindu, or a pork eating baby killers. Confused Confucious followers that called themselves Han, stop robbing lands of the Hui. Aah, another reformist trying to amend themselves, Demsci.

U r so afraid of Swine flus but eat the swine like their are fulls of vitamins and goodness. Eyak! Eaters of Eaters of shits n vile. Ermm…You are what u eat eh? O wise Demsci! Cheers!

Islam is perfect. Why would we want to change anything in it in the first place blind man?

Name me a religion or reformist that had a complete sets, oh I don’t know, codes of conducts in every aspects of lives, be it sex, marriages, issues, food, how to kill, how to die, how to live, how to eat, how to pee, how to go about when u menstruate, how to lie, when to run, why to fight? Why to die?

Tell me Babylon, Mr. Policeman. The ball is in your court.
180.
srizals
July 31, 2009 • 9:12 pm

Perverted? In what sense. In sense that I own a sex industry or what? In sense, of me, the publishers of Playboy n Penthouse n Porns DVD available freely and openly in Muslim nations, sorry, in the land of the free, the highly infected by sexual diseases, USA, n abortions throughout Highly Civilized Scientific Communities of the West?
Who would be stupid enough to scientifically claimed HIV n Aids are totally different, sorry the same? Yeah…your scientific skills surely shows something eh? Smartie pants? Or is it smartie thongs? Perverted eh? Are u comparing me with your Church sex scandals or Sex driven Christians cult that like to have sex as many as they can, with whomever they got their hands on and love to eat Cynide and yes, also their own children too. Sick reformist Christians! Do u want me to provide the statistics here, the names, the churches, the boy victims, fallen prey to the true pedo, unmarried men of god, devout Christian honcho in US churches. You are sick! You can’t even differentiate between a pedo and a husband. Stupid really really stupid. Sorry I have to say it.
Stupido! Bye Marie, no offense, I insist! Sex is not something dirty. U are!
181.
srizals
July 31, 2009 • 9:35 pm

Shame on me,
Shame on u,
Shame on all the little things,
That U do!

Oh do come back to me with a vengeance. I’m waitin right here.

Oceans a part…Day after day…N I slowly go insane
I read your lies, all are vile, and I can’t get near u now.

Oh why can’t u see it, baby (blind haters)
U got me goin crazy..

Wherever you go
Whatever you do

I will be right here waiting 4 u,
Whatever it takes, Or how my heart breaks,
I will be right here waiting 4 nerds…
182.
srizals
July 31, 2009 • 9:40 pm

Come 2 me and face ur slayer, Liars!
183.
srizals
July 31, 2009 • 9:44 pm

Come out, come out, where ever u r, Cowards!

Here kitty, kitty, I got fish.
Here kitty, kitty, meowrrrr….
184.
srizals
July 31, 2009 • 9:49 pm

Crawling in my skin,
Consuming all I feel,
Fear is how I fall,
Confusing what is real…
185.
Marie
July 31, 2009 • 10:19 pm

srizals:

Perverted? In what sense. In sense that I own a sex industry or what? In sense, of me, the publishers of Playboy n Penthouse n Porns DVD available freely and openly in Muslim nations, sorry, in the land of the free, the highly infected by sexual diseases, USA, n abortions throughout Highly Civilized Scientific Communities of the West?

I say:

Lets see the U.S. has a higher population then most countries so yes we do have a higher STD rate? But how high is the STD rate among Muslim countries. Lets see I hear that Saudi Arabia has a high STD rate and the saudis are Muslims.

Which country has the highest consumption rate of pornography? It’s not the US. Hint: It’s a Muslim country.
Which country also has the highest percentage of carrying pornographic pictures on cell phones? Answer: Saudi Arabia.

In which country where 80% of the women complained of sexual harassment? Answer: Egypt.

Srizals:

Who would be stupid enough to scientifically claimed HIV n Aids are totally different, sorry the same? Yeah…your scientific skills surely shows something eh? Smartie pants? Or is it smartie thongs? Perverted eh? Are u comparing me with your Church sex scandals or Sex driven Christians cult that like to have sex as many as they can, with whomever they got their hands on and love to eat Cynide and yes, also their own children too. Sick reformist Christians! Do u want me to provide the statistics here, the names, the churches, the boy victims, fallen prey to the true pedo, unmarried men of god, devout Christian honcho in US churches. You are sick! You can’t even differentiate between a pedo and a husband. Stupid really really stupid. Sorry I have to say it.

I say:

Pedophilia is legalized in many Muslim countries. Incest is also rampant in Muslim countries because it is ok to marry a cousin.

Srizals:

Stupido! Bye Marie, no offense, I insist! Sex is not something dirty. U are!

I say:

Well what should I expect from a Muslim male who is taught to believe that women and kafirs are dirty.
186.
Marie
July 31, 2009 • 10:20 pm

ibnsahr the reason why Srizals is a teacher is so he can access to many children.
187.
Marie
July 31, 2009 • 10:23 pm

srizals:

Here kitty, kitty, I got fish.
Here kitty, kitty, meowrrrr….

I say:

superkitty just sharpened the claws and is ready to rip you to shreds. By the what is your blood type?
188.
srizals
July 31, 2009 • 10:37 pm

Uuuhh.. I’m impressed, not so cowardly baby killers after all eh? Women. I sure have problems with them. In debates n discussions I mean. Your intellectuality always fascinated me. But again, what do u mean by I hear, I heard..Is it a scientific facts known to everyone or a proven case or based on research? Accepted truth?

Yeah, yeah, biggest consumers of porn eh? Another whispers in the wind eh? But of course thanks 2 the girls with dangling cross that they bear in their necks performing sexual acts that would even baffled the baboons, next to kin of the Darwinist.
Incest? By marrying our cousins??
Ohhh. I do have to thank u from the bottom of my heart. I never ever know this fact until now. Your worldviews I mean. No wonder u Christians made love and locked up your daughters n fathered ur own grandsons n daughters, it started to make sense to me now. Have to leave the battlefield of love…4 now. God is calling for me to meet Him. Have to go n meet my maker. Chat with u later not a pornstar but still a secretive identity afraid if she would be mocked or look stupid or something. Be brave girl, at least let me know who r my worthy opponents plz.

Not, I’m not in love with u or ur sick lies n generalizations techniques of half truth, In the love of God, of course. What do u expect? The love of a monkey? I’m not a Darwinist.
189.
Marie
July 31, 2009 • 11:09 pm

To Srizals

Read this:

Four years ago, I began a photo project on the sex trafficking of young women in Eastern Europe. I interviewed and photographed girls who had escaped. Some had been trafficked to Turkey and Russia. Others were taken as far as the United Arab Emirates, lured by the promise of legitimate jobs and a brighter future. Once they arrived in the new country, they were priced and sold, and their documents taken away. The young women told me they were forced to service mechanics, soldiers, priests, butchers, tourists, and even U.N. personnel who were supposed to protect them.

I grew up in Eastern Europe and met Vika on my second reporting trip to Moldova. (You can hear Vika’s story in the FlashPoint slideshow, Moldova: The Price of Sex.) She told me she had been trafficked to Dubai, at times serving 30 clients a day. She quickly learned the only English words necessary to keep her owner from hitting her: “How much?” and “With or without plastic?” Once, without plastic, her luck ran out and she got pregnant. It didn’t matter. Her pimp kept her working for the duration of her pregnancy.

After hearing Vika’s stories, Dubai became a place I felt I had to see to understand.
Dubai

Emerging as a world business hub in the last decade, the city strives to keep breaking new records: the world’s tallest building, the world’s first seven star hotel, the world’s biggest shopping mall, the world’s largest manmade port.

Dubai has been described as the Las Vegas of the Middle East. Emerging as a world business hub in the last decade, the city strives to keep breaking new records: the world’s tallest building, the world’s first seven star hotel, the world’s biggest shopping mall, the world’s largest manmade port. Dubai’s free trade zone is a major enticement for foreign investors, and the boomtown atmosphere has attracted more than 180 nationalities to come live and work here. In this playground of the Middle East, I found indoor ski slopes, camel races and dizzying skyscrapers.

When I arrived to report this story with my video camerawoman Sachi Cunningham, I was prepared to confront the human degradation of Vika’s experience, but I was surprised to find something else. I met women working as prostitutes who told me that they were doing so because they had chosen to. Sasha, for example, was trafficked from Siberia and serviced clients against her will. But then she managed to run away from her madam and decided to continue to work as a prostitute on her own. Her English was good, so I asked her why she didn’t find a job as a salesperson in one of the many shopping malls in Dubai. She said she could earn more in one night as a prostitute than working a whole month in sales. And she wouldn’t have to stand on her feet all day. Like many other girls I spoke with, Sasha charges $500 dirhams per hour (about US$140). She told me that the money she sends home to Siberia has allowed her family to build a house.

I met another woman from Azerbaijan who was living with a “boyfriend,” the term she used to describe one of her regular clients. She told me how he would often lock her in the apartment to keep her services exclusively for himself. When I first met her, she talked about her son back home and how she had sent money to buy him his first computer. The second time we met, she was drunk and missing a front tooth. When I asked her what had happened, she shrugged it off: “We got into a fight, he punched me,” she said, lighting up another cigarette.

Men outnumber women 3 to 1 in Dubai, and the variety of places to purchase sex is abundant — from the brothels where Vika described being sold and resold and the back alleys where migrant workers pay for a few minutes of pleasure, to the mainstream Westernized nightclubs, often inside upscale hotels, where women from all over the world congregate according to their nationalities awaiting the next client.

In a Muslim country, where prostitution is illegal, we decided the only way to get a closer look at Dubai’s barely disguised sex trade was to visit some of these clubs and capture for ourselves the city’s night secrets.

– Mimi Chakarova

This article was written by another person living in Egypt.

Here’s the link:

http://scribd.com/doc/6493540/Veiled-Pornography-Patterns-and-Consumption-of-Pornography

There have also been cases, especially in Pakistan where daughters (sometimes as young as 3)[4] have been sold to others for personal gain, usually to raise money for gambling, drinking, smoking and consuming drugs. Prices for child brides usually range from PKRs 80,000 to PKRs 200,000 (~US$ 1,340 to ~US$ 3,350). In March 2004 in Sindh province, Pakistan, a man was charged for selling his 7 year old daughter to a 35 year old man for marriage. In another rather peculiar case, a 13-year old girl, bought for PKRs 53,000 (~US$ 888) was later rejected by her buyer on the ground that the girl was not “healthy” enough, and he demanded a “healthier” girl from the seller[5]. As recent as May 2009, A Saudi sheikh performed a wedding ceremony between a 10-year-old girl and a 26-year-old man. The reason for this? The girl’s father said that he married off his daughter, as he feared she would remain a spinster.[6]In 2008 in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, another marriage between an 8 year old girl and a 58 year old man was validated by a local court, and a plea by the girl’s mother to nullify the marriage was rejected. The girl was apparently sold into the marriage by her father for SR 30,000 (~US$ 7,994) to ease the financial difficulty he was facing.[7]

Another form of pedophilic marriage is linked to a tribal custom called Vani, which is a common practice in the Punjab province of Pakistan and the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan. This custom is tied to blood feuds among the differing tribes and clans where the young girls are forcibly married-off in order to resolve the feuds. The Vani could be avoided if the clan of the girl agrees to pay money in lieu, called Deet. Otherwise the young bride will have to pay for the crime of her male relatives by spending the rest of her life with a rival tribesman.[8]

Another rather similar concept is called Badal, or revenge. This custom is strong in Pashtun society native to northern Pakistan and Afghanistan, and leads to a need for disputes to be settled quickly to avoid further bloodshed. Girls are treated as second-class citizens when they are sent to be a bride in a new family to mend ties.[5]

by Dr Radhasyam Brahmachari

15 Feb, 2009
In November 2007, BBC reported that a devout father Afazuddin Ali (36), from a village in West Bengal (India), married his 15-year-old daughter. To convince his wife Sakina to the marriage, he informed her that he was under a divine sanction from Allah in this regard. Father of two daughters and two sons, Afazuddin had decided to marry his eldest daughter 6 months earlier. When Sakina protested, he convinced her that he was simply carrying out the divine will of Allah. Her husband a deeply religious man, she could not believe that he would tell her a lie in Allah’s name. Sakina agreed and the wedding occurred quietly. The girl fell pregnant with the child of her father.

The mode of Afazuddin’s receiving Allah’s divine instruction is not known. Allah used to adopt various means to communicate his divine instructions to Prophet Mohammad. When at the age of 52, the Prophet decided to marry Aisha, a child of 6, Allah sent his divine sanction in the form of dreams. For three consecutive nights, angel Zibrail (Gabriel) showed a picture of Aisha and said, “This is your wife.” For the first two nights, the Prophet could not recognize whose picture it was. But in the third night, he could recognize beyond doubt that it was Aisha’s. So he had no other alternative but to carry out Allah’s divine will as soon as possible. So he married Aisha in Medina in the first year of Hijri, even defying Aisha’s father Abu Bakr’s initial opposition, because Muhammad was like a father to Aisha.

In the fifth year of Hijri, the Prophet—while peeping into the house of his adopted son Zeid—saw latter’s newly-married wife Jainab naked and become so aroused that he had to rush home to quickly sleep with one of his many wives to cool himself down. Nonetheless, the Prophet because love-stricken by her beauty. But marrying daughters-in-law were considered incestuous, which was not well-accepted in the Arab society. The most merciful Allah—always ready to make His beloved Prophet’s every desire a reality—realized that Muhammad needed a divine sanction to defend himself from public scandal if he married her. So, without wasting time, Allah sent Zibrail with verse 33:37 of the Koran that reads:

“….You sought to hide in your heart what Allah was to reveal. You were afraid of man, although it would have been more proper to fear Allah. And when Zeid divorced his wife, We gave her to you in marriage, so that it should become legitimate for true believers to wed the wives of their adopted sons if they divorced them. Allah’s will must needs to be done”.

Realizing that this verse was inadequate to protect the Prophet as public scandal broke out, Allah revealed another verse, namely 33:38 to defend him:

“No blame shall be attached to the Prophet for doing what is sanctioned for him by Allah. …..”

The Prophet, a deeply religious man, evidently never proceeded with his mission without a sanction from Allah, be it marrying a new wife, or carrying out a raid in a kafir settlement, or to massacre kafir tribes. And Allah was ever ready to assist the Prophet with divine sanctions for the smooth-sailing of the his every design. For example, when more and more younger wives were inducted into the Prophet’s harem and he desired to spend more time with the younger ones, Allah quickly sent divine sanction (Koran 33:51), which allowed him to set aside the elderly wives and take younger ones to bed by revealing:

“You may put off any of your wives you please and take to your bed any of them you please. Nor is it unlawful for you to receive any of those whom you have temporarily set aside. That is more proper, so that they may be contended and not vexed, and may all be pleased with what you give them. Allah knows what is in your hearts. Surely Allah is all-knowing and gracious”

Furthermore, to make it easy for the Prophet to marry any woman and to keep any number of wives, Allah revealed:

“O Prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave-girls whom Allah has given you as booty; the daughters of your paternal and maternal aunts who fled with you; and any believing woman who gives herself to the Prophet and whom the Prophet wishes to take in marriage. This privilege is yours alone, being granted to no other believer” (Koran-33/50).

The similar was the case with Afazuddin’s marriage with his daughter. So, it would not be difficult for the reader to understand what type of God is Allah and the real nature of Allah’s sanctions.

Regarding the women, whom a Muslim man can marry, the Koran says,

“you shall not marry the women whom your fathers married: all previous such marriages excepted. That was an evil practice, indecent and abominable” (4:22).

“You are forbidden to marry your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your paternal and maternal aunts, the daughters of your brothers and sisters, your foster-mothers, your foster-sisters, the mothers of your wives, your step-daughters who are in your charge, born of the wives with whom you have lain (it is no offence for you to marry your step-daughters if you have not consummated your marriage with their mothers), and the wives of your own begotten sons. You are also forbidden to take in marriage two sisters at one and the same time: all previous such marriages excepted. Surely Allah is forgiving and merciful.” (4:23)

Allah continues,

“All women other than these are lawful for you provided you court them with your wealth in modest conduct, not in fornication. Give them their dowry for the enjoyment you have had of them as a duty. Surely Allah is all-knowing and wise” (4:24).

So it appears from the above verses of the Koran that, except a few very near relations, Muslim men can marry all other women. Most of all, Koran permits one marrying the step-daughters under one’s care, as well as daughters-in-law. Islam, like other Abrahamic creeds, fundamentally agrees to incestuous relationship as the human race—hold these religions—started its journey from a single pair of man and woman, namely Adam and Eve (Adam and Hawa in Islam). This made marriage between brothers and sisters, the children of Adam and Eve, inevitable.

We may now return to Afazuddin marrying his own daughter. In this context, one should recall that Allah, through the verse 4:22 of the Koran, has forbidden a Muslim from marrying his mother or his step-mother. These facts—that Allah sanctified marriage between step-daughters, daughters-in-laws and that aged Muhammad had married his own daughter-in-law as well as Aisha, his 6-year-old niece, who would be considered just like a daughter in civilized society—undoubtedly shape the Muslim morality and inspire them marrying close relatives, which even sometimes break the blood-barrier set by Islam. Furthermore, the Islamic sanction of polygamy, sex-slavery, temporary marriage etc. create a distorted sexual sensuality in Muslim minds, which undoubtedly contribute to deviant sexual relationship in Muslim societies. For example, a young Muslim man Shokin (22) from Uttar Pradesh eloped with his divorced step-mother and married her in a Haryana court in June 2007. In a similar manner, a young man from Murshibabad, West Bengal, wanted to marry his widowed step-mother. When the Imam of the local mosque gave green signal, he proceeded with his plan. But a problem arose regarding the children of his new wife. So far they used to address him as “elder brother” and the question arose: How shall they address him now? The Imam advised that they must address him now as “father”.

Similarly, incidences of marriage between father and daughter are also not very uncommon in Muslim society. Emperor Shahjahan was extremely lecherous, who had greater than 5,000 women in his harem. Though he did not officially marry his daughters, it becomes evident from the writings of foreign travelers like Francois Bernier, Sebastian Manrique, and Peter Mundi etc. that he had sexual relation with his eldest daughter Jahanara and the youngest daughter Chamni Begum. To defend him, the Emperor used to say that it was the privilege of the planter of a tree to taste its first fruit. According to a news appeared in Bartaman, a Kolkata-based Bengali daily, on 28 June 1994 that Anisur Rahman, a resident of the district of 24-Parganas in West Bengal eloped with his own 17-year-old daughter and presented her as his wife. Meanwhile, Anisur’s wife lodged a complaint with the local police station and when the police arrested him and brought him back to his village, his daughter was found to be pregnant.

Let me conclude that the present Muslim societies continue to fall pray to the model of sexual depravity that the duo of Allah and His Prophet had established in the 7th-century Arabia. These example of deviant sexual behaviors have great deal of similarity with how the Prophet of Islam used to exploit Allah, whenever he had a desire, which the-then Arab morality disapproved.
190.
srizals
July 31, 2009 • 11:45 pm

Nuke one of us, then all Muslims will descend on u. N pray to God. They are able to follow the conduct of wars outlined by the Examples of mankind, the Teacher of mankind. Prophet Muhammad s.a.w.

So don’t worry.
Ur women, civilians n especially babies are save if that time truly comes. Read the conducts of war in Islam. What r ur conducts of wars, cowards? We got it 1,400 years ago. Long before the weak Geneva Convention. Who abide by it anyway? U?

I pray hard that ur leaders with nukes on their hands are not that stupid. U see, Muslims warriors, the Braves that everyone is afraid of are not afraid of death. Why? U know why? They got to live forever side by side with God, with beautiful girls of heaven, untouched, unseen, by men, by anyone, made especially for them, for their eyes only, made out from gems, diamonds, never menstruate, nor smelly, nor grumpy n Judgment Day is still around the corner. Read up. Know about us Muslims. At least, u won’t be accusing stupid things like pedo husbands n cousin incest marriages. Geez.. this is not challenging at all. No wonder londonspirit is getting boring.

I’m speaking on behalf of the main stream Muslims, The followers of the ways of Muhammad, The Union, As Sunnah Wal Jama’ah. For the terrorist. For the Syiah which Ali Sina belongs to, I think they r going to be madder n crazier than ever before if u do nuke one of us.

U can’t scare us out with death.

We are not cowards like u. Love of lust n wanna live forever modern day Pharaohs that want to do n can do anything as they please.

We watched in horrors as u slaughtered our babies, our children, the helpless women and old ones, trapped, helpless, hopeless. Do u think we do really care about ourselves after watching them.

Some Dullard in here asked me why I’m bothering about the Muslim Palestinian. Well, I’m not like the Christians, who keep to themselves when their christian Palestinian brothers are being killed and even up to a point church of nativity was surrounded. Geez.. u r stupider than the most stupidest person I’ve ever met, They are not strangers to me. They are me. They are part of me. It isn’t their babies that died and suffered that day, when Gaza was torched by depleted uranium n white phosphorous bombs that keep on burning consuming flesh n oxygen. Yeah, you scientific community did bring prosperity to mankind. Smart Atheist but heartless.

Can’t u figure out by now. We prayed towards the same direction, the same way, in the same language, the same laws, the only differences are our geography n heritage. Well, glory to God that created man in races, so that they gotta know each other, learn from one another, not annihilate each other, u crazy atheist, money n powerr worshiper.

U sick liars, U do worship something if not God ain’t u mule skinner.

Still trying to outsmart me eh, mule skinner.

Gotta go to natural hot springs with the students in this blessed lands of the Malay n sharing it with Indians, some of them are stupid liars demanding this n that, with the vegetarian Chinese, well unluckily some of them do love pigs, n act like pigs from time to time. N our brothers from Indonesia, Bangladesh n others. Shoot u later, Mr. and Mrs. Dullard. At u Marie n R_not.
…Demsci. u r totally spies, ..sorry stupid. Buzz off Bozo.
191.
Demsci
August 1, 2009 • 12:10 am

LondonSpirit said:
“Again this is the war in relation to when muhammed and his followers found out about a secret ambush to attack them, so he attacked them before they could attack him. Self defence mate.
At least muhammed had intellegence to attack someone that was actually gonna attack them. Unlike the americans who have so much technology and yet they say IRAQ gonna nuke them in 45 mins, so they start an all out war on the country. And do they find nukes. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO”.

True enough, it was embarrassing, it was a painful mistake or even a deception on purpose, by the Americans. A real setback for us Westerners.

But do we hear the Americans or Israeli’s ever, even in war, saying something like:
“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)…..” Surah 9:5.

And about it being only about a 7th-century-war; what other people have holy books talking about ancient wars while they are calling these books the eternal perfect words of God?

Holy books moreover, should have use, its followers should show more good behavior and less bad behavior. And at least what is shown here on FFI is that Muslims by and large on the whole on average are not behaving less bad than other groups. Or behaving on the whole significantly better than other groups. Or are having more prosperity or success. So why would unimproved, unamended Islam be relevant for usefulness?

Unless the Muslims, like the Christians, supplement and even at places replace their Holy books with much other wisdom, good ideas and practices, gathered by mankind through the ages. But that is what all followers of all other faiths and no faith also already do.
192.
srizals
August 1, 2009 • 12:22 am

Oh Marie, n R_not, if the time do come, I mean an all out wars between Muslims n Nukers allied with sick killers n rapists and the vile that walked on this earth. If I do catch u, no I won’t kill u, my Teacher prohibited me from doin it and God had promised the fiery hell of those who transgress even Muslims. I will take u n Marie as my wives, sorry as my slaves, captives, prisoners of wars. nahh, we Muslims don’t have detention death camps like in WW 1 n WW 2. You gotta live with us, in our homes. But of course being a prisoner of war u have to work for us to, do our laundries, do our dishes, more like an Indonesian maids are doing like now, n they are not even prisoners of wars or slaves, yet some Mr. n Mrs. Dullard do treat them like one. Well, u get my points. N if I felt like it, yes, I would have sexual intercourse with u. Not unwillingly of course, that would made me no better than those who I loathed on, the stupid crazy rapist. We Muslim guys r not like that. Well, the devoted truth Muslims of course. You can’t never of course be my wife’s equals. You were my enemy remember? N then, when u get pregnant, Geez… I had to free u and marry u, well, I don’t want my offspring to be a slave too right? N called her mother as a slave, Do U? N then, suddenly, our leaders decided those who had butchered Muslims in the past will all be put to death. Don’t cry for them, they are butchers, slayers of babies not of Muslim braves, those truly christian soldiers would be spared and freed with some ransom, well they were the enemies remember? N those who cannot afford to pay the ransom would of course do something else, like teaching our children with knowldege until they had mastered it. Become the teacher of our children. With food n shelters of course. N when they are all educated got to leave living thier lives not in some camps, starving n dying with diseases of forced labours.
N then suddenly our leaders started to marry your women of chaste, the weeping widows, the women that lost their husbands, by attending to their misery by taking the place of their husbands n declaring that u guys are not some lowly Muslims, sorry, lowly defeated bunch. We married u, right? We won’t marry apes of course. Let the Darwinist do that. N because of this marriage of leaders. We had to release all the women n girls because we are now related. We are one big families. We won’t keep our own family members as slave now won’t we. That would be absurd.

See, this what had happened in the past. Don’t compare with ur sick slavery system with us. U kidnapped us Muslims, the free Africans from their homeland without declaring a war, n forced them to work on your cottonfield till death do us part, with your bastards also being a slave remember, but whiter of course. U sick bunch of slavers are nothing compared to us.
The first Muslims were slaves to the people of the Idols. N they treat their slaves worst than Muslims, well like the free civilized scientific more advanced smartie pants Christian Americans, of course, who were u expecting? Muslims? Gotta go, Cheers Cowards Psycho! Bodoh! Jahil berlagak pandai! I mean it to my enemies only, not to the rest of the readers. My apologies. Read up the topic of this blog, n even the purpose of this blog. I excuse my manners. Sorry again.
193.
ibnsahr
August 1, 2009 • 2:43 am

***LS – IBNSAHR your getting sick of muslims. I am getting sick and tired of you guys quoting the same verses over and over and over again. its getting really boring now***

LS, i hardly quote verses, because i know all your mind gymnastic, you can interpreted the way you pleased, but at the same time the suicide bomber quotting the very verses on the video before they doing their jihad. i know all muslim get numb, when seing the verses, you failed to acknowledge the inhumane teaching out of religion in the verses, when religion supposed to teach love and peace (for all human being not only muslim), look at yourself, you cannot even keep your own words with marie about challenge that you initiated, i see you have times everyday on this site, how am i going to trust your explaination of surah?

after all may be we quoting verses just for lefties whos so ignorant of what is written in quran and for muslim like srizal who doesn’t even seem like ever read the quran at all, looks like he learnt islam from third person, who spread the hatred out of narrow minded.

muslim look at religion differently than 80% of kafr in this world, you don’t seem to have problem with your religion that preaches about war, and how you deal with the war. And you tell me if muslim not in war with infiidel now, look at what recently happened in nigeria, they try to impose sharia by killing, where you see america bombing country try to impose christianity?

mate, if my religion preaches and glorifies war, i might as well become atheist, its a law of nature, even animal understand, you got attacked, you fight back, simple as that, thats what quran is, so simple, no wisdom at all.

the question is, why there is war in the first place, all pagan’s arab live side by side before this crazy mo, there may be some scuffles, but not try to conquer the flat land
194.
Marie
August 1, 2009 • 2:44 am

Srizals:

U kidnapped us Muslims, the free Africans from their homeland without declaring a war, n forced them to work on your cottonfield till death do us part, with your bastards also being a slave remember, but whiter of course.

I say:

First of all the African slaves that were taken from Africa were not Muslim, that whole myth was started by The Nation of Islam founder Wallace Fard Muhammad who turned out to be charlatan and a fraud who made money off the blacks. Fard said the blacks were descendents of the Muslim Berbers ( by the way the Berbers were a mixture of different races ) who originated in Algeria. There is no proof to his claims and before Fard came along there was no such belief among the blacks.

By the way the slave trade in Africa was started by the Muslims.

The Forgotten Holocaust:
The Eastern Slave Trade

The Arab Slave Trade is the longest yet least discussed of the two major trades. It begins in the 7th century AD as Arabs and other Asians poured into Northern and Eastern Africa under the banner of Islam, either converting or subjugating the African societies they came upon. In the beginning there was some level of mutual respect between the Blacks and the more Caucasian-Semitic Arabs. Mihdja, a Black man, is said to be the first Muslim killed in battle while another, Bilal, is regarded as a “third of the faith.” Dhu’l-Nun al-Misri, born in Upper Egypt near Sudan, is regarded as the founder of Sufism. Today Sufism’s greatest stronghold is in Southern Egypt and Sudan. Islamic prosperity was based upon Black as well as Arabic genius.

The children of a stinking Nubian black—God put no light in their complexion!
Arab Poet, late 600AD,

But as Islamic prosperity grew, so did an air of hostility towards many Blacks, Muslims or otherwise. Some Arabs complained about having to work next to Blacks in high positions. After the Prophet’s death, even the descendants of Bilal received negative treatment. Arabic writings became laced with anti-Black sentiment. This reaction of Blacks at the time to this can be seen in the writings of a contemporary 9th Century Black scholar in residence at Baghdad by the name of Abu ‘Uthman’ Amr Ibn Bahr Al-Jahiz. Al-Jahiz, to confront a growing tide of anti-black sentiment in the Muslim world, published a highly controversial work at the time titled, Kitab Fakhr As-Sudan ‘Ala Al-Bidan, “The Book of Glory of the Blacks over the Whites.” Al-Jahiz in his work contended that even the Prophet Mohammad’s father may have been of African lineage.

These new attitudes towards Blacks by Arabs marked the beginning of African enslavement. Though not based solely on race, the Arab Slave Trade did focus heavily upon Africans whom Arabs now saw as inferior to themselves. At first these Arabs raided African villages themselves seeking humans for sale. This not being always successful, they soon enlisted the aid of fellow African Muslims or recently converted Blacks. Wrapping themselves within Islam, these converts rationalized the slavery of their non Muslim brethren as the selling of “unbelievers.” At other times the Arabs would demand tribute in the form of human bodies from Africans weary of the fight against Arabic-Islamic incursions.

The Arabs took advantage of regional wars in Africa to buy captives from the victor. They also used the old divide-and-conquer technique. They worked one group against the other and took or killed the best and strongest.
S.E. Anderson, The Black Holocaust for Beginners

Slave Raids and Markets

The Arab slavers raided at nightfall, during the dinner time. Africans who resisted or tried to run were shot and killed. Most adult men were killed as the Arabs favored women and children for sale. The captives then endured a long and torturous march through the African countryside as the slavers searched and gathered more captives. Young men, women, and children were bound by hand and by neck throughout this journey, enduring beatings and rapes along the way. Those who fell sick or dead were left behind. Others remained bound to living captives.

After surviving the torturous ride aboard the Arab slave ships, Africans were taken to the slave markets. Here Muslim men would inspect their intended purchases. Women and young girls were degradingly probed by these men in public or private stalls to test their sexual worth. Those that did not survive their time in these markets were left out to rot. It is said that that hyenas, very numerous in the region, “gorged themselves on human flesh…” Pictured here is a slave market in East Africa.

Concubines and Eunuchs

Pictured here is an African trader (possibly an Egyptian)with two Sudanese slave girls for sale. The African is a Muslim while the girls are not. The Eastern Slave Trade dealt primarily with African women: a ratio of two women for each man. These women and young girls were used by Arabs and other Asians as concubines. Filling the harems of wealthy Arabs, they often bore them a host of children. This sexual abuse of African women would continue for nearly 1200 years.

The Eastern Slave Trade also dealt in the sale of castrated male slaves: Aghas or eunuchs. Used as guards and tutors, these slaves were central to familial peace, protection and order in many wealthy Muslim households. Eunuchs were created by completely amputating the scrotum and penis of 8-to-12-year-old African boys. Hundreds of thousands of young boys may have been subjected to this genital mutilation. Many bled to death during the gory procedure. The survival rate of this process ranged from 1 in 10 to 1 in 30.

Holocaust: The Numbers

Due to the enormous length of the Arab Slave Trade, from 700 to 1911AD, it is impossible to be certain of the numbers of Africans sold in this system. Estimates place the numbers somewhere around 14 million: at least 9.6 million African women and 4.4 African men.

It has been estimated that in all, at least 14 to 20 MILLION African men, women and children died throughout this trade. (Photos and Information courtesy of The Black Holocaust for Beginners by SE Anderson, A Pictorial History of the Slave Trade, Slave Trade of Eastern Africa by Beachy, Slavery in the Arab World by Gordon Murray and Africa in History by Basil Davidson)

Slavery has been rife throughout all of ancient history. Most, if not all, ancient civilizations practiced this institution and it is described (and defended) in early writings of the Sumerians, Babylonians, and Egyptians. It was also practiced by early societies in central America and Africa. (See Bernard Lewis’s work Race and Slavery in the Middle East1 for a detailed chapter of the origins and practices of slavery.)

The Qur’an prescribes a humanitarian approach to slavery — free men could not be enslaved, and those faithful to foreign religions could live as protected persons, dhimmis, under Muslim rule (as long as they maintained payment of taxes called Kharaj and Jizya). However, the spread of the Islamic Empire resulted in a much harsher interpretation of the law. For example, if a dhimmis was unable to pay the taxes they could be enslaved, and people from outside the borders of the Islamic Empire were considered an acceptable source of slaves.

Although the law required owners to treat slaves well and provide medical treatment, a slave had no right to be heard in court (testimony was forbidden by slaves), had no right to property, could marry only with permission of their owner, and was considered to be a chattel, that is the (moveable) property, of the slave owner. Conversion to Islam did not automatically give a slave freedom nor did it confer freedom to their children. Whilst highly educated slaves and those in the military did win their freedom, those used for basic duties rarely achieved freedom. In addition, the recorded mortality rate was high — this was still significant even as late as the nineteenth century and was remarked upon by western travelers in North Africa and Egypt.

Slaves were obtained through conquest, tribute from vassal states (in the first such treaty, Nubia was required to provide hundreds of male and female slaves), offspring (children of slaves were also slaves, but since many slaves were castrated this was not as common as it had been in the Roman empire), and purchase. The latter method provided the majority of slaves, and at the borders of the Islamic Empire vast number of new slaves were castrated ready for sale (Islamic law did not allow mutilation of slaves, so it was done before they crossed the border). The majority of these slaves came from Europe and Africa — there were always enterprising locals ready to kidnap or capture their fellow countrymen.

Black Africans were transported to the Islamic empire across the Sahara to Morocco and Tunisia from West Africa, from Chad to Libya, along the Nile from East Africa, and up the coast of East Africa to the Persian Gulf. This trade had been well entrenched for over 600 years before Europeans arrived, and had driven the rapid expansion of Islam across North Africa.

By the time of the Ottoman Empire, the majority of slaves were obtained by raiding in Africa. Russian expansion had put an end to the source of “exceptionally beautiful” female and “brave” male slaves from the Caucasians — the women were highly prised in the harem, the men in the military. The great trade networks across north Africa were as much to do with the safe transportation of slaves as other goods. An analysis of prices at various slave markets shows that eunuchs fetched higher prices than other males, encouraging the castration of slaves before export.

Documentation suggests that slaves throughout Islamic world were mainly used for menial domestic and commercial purposes. Eunuchs were especially prised for bodyguards and confidential servants; women as concubines and menials. A Muslim slave owner was entitled by law to use slaves for sexual pleasure.

As primary source material becomes available to Western scholars, the bias towards urban slaves is being questioned. Records also show that thousands of slaves were used in gangs for agriculture and mining. Large landowners and rulers used thousands of such slaves, usually in dire conditions: “of the Saharan salt mines it is said that no slave lived there for more than five years.1″

The most favored of all Islamic slaves seems to have been the military slave — although performers were the most privileged. By the ninth century slave armies were in use across the whole of the Islamic Empire. The early slave armies tended to be white, taken from Russia and eastern Europe. However, the first independent Muslim ruler of Egypt relied on black slaves and at his death is said to have left 24,000 (white) Mamaluks and 45,000 Nubian military slaves. In north Africa the source of black slaves from Nubia and Sudan were too convenient to ignore. At the time of the Fatimid defeat, in the twelfth century, black troops formed the majority of the army. By the fifteenth century black military slaves were being favored with the use in battle of firearms (the Mamaluks refused to use such dishonorable weapons). Slave troops in Tunisia in the seventeenth century even included cavalry, and the Sultan of Morocco is recorded as having an army of 250,000 black slaves.

Even as late as the mid-nineteenth century, Egyptian rulers actively recruited black slaves into their army — for example, they were included in the Egyptian expeditionary force sent by Sa’id Pasha to Mexico in support of the French in 1863.

The transatlantic slave trade sent Arab slavers into overdrive, here was a new market which could be exploited. When the Europeans abolished slavery in the 1800’s, the taking of slaves in Africa continued. The eradication of such practices was cited as a major justification by the Europeans for the colonization of Africa. Certainly Britain had a significant fleet of ships patrolling the coasts against such slave traders.

Encyclopaedia Britannia’s Historical Survey of Slavery1 points out that “The European colonization movement of the second half of the 19th century put an end to slavery in many parts of Africa…” and that “the British turned their attention back to Africa. They moved onto the continent, took control of those governments that were thriving on slavery, and attempted to abolish the institution.” Further “in the 1870’s British missionaries moved into Malawi, the place of origin of the Indian Ocean Islamic slave trade, in an attempt to interdict it at its source… In Dahomey the French abolition of slavery resulted in the cessation of ceremonial human sacrifice.”

Unfortunately this was not enough for “some parts of Africa and much of the Islamic world retained slavery at the end of World War I. For this reason the League of Nations and later the United Nations took the final extinction of slavery to be one of their obligations. The League had considerable success in Africa, with the assistance of the colonial powers and by the late 1930’s slavery was abolished in Liberia and Ethiopia”. The problem was such that “After World War II the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights … proclaimed the immorality and the illegality of slavery. Slavery was abolished in most Islamic countries, although it persisted in Saudi Arabia into the 1960’s. It finally was made illegal in the Arabian Peninsula in 1962.”
195.
ibnsahr
August 1, 2009 • 3:07 am

Marie, you wasting your time on this sewage dweller, his malnutrition brain unable to absorb it,
thats why in their country they have “bumi putra” policy, means, giving previlege to the local(muslim), because they couldn’t compete with other races like indian, chinese in malay, in order to get a job.Only in the country where muslim run the country, will come up with this stupid and unjust policy.
196.
londonspirit
August 1, 2009 • 12:07 pm

ibnsahr there are 1 billion or so muslims who can tell u that the verses in the quran in relation of killin is in the context of war. An there are about a few thousands that say otherwise. Why because they r just attention seekers who want to sound like rude boys. Out of the non believers majority of them think its a peaceful religion. Top politicans in uk such as tony blair gordon brown holloway say on tv tat islam condems terrorist attacks. Even the prince of england speaks only good about islam an is even considerin converting. Even the president of vsa speaks verses from the quran in relation to peace in a conference. It is only narrow minded people like yourself who have hate an want to spread that hate amongst others. You think ali sina opened this site so tat u no the truth. How can u spread truth when ur posting videos on here which has no relation to islam. If i wanted to i could show what christians do an blame it on christianity. Further more he is quoting verses on here tat is completely out of context. If he was a man he would punte th rebuttal to his answers an let people decide. But of course he wont do tat. He has debates with un known people. But geniuine people he rejects for a debate. His book on undertameing muhammed was a pack of lies. An when i pointed out 80 errors in the first 40 pages he said to me not to mail him anymore. He set a challenge that even if answered he wont accept-
197.
londonspirit
August 1, 2009 • 4:34 pm

marie i dont no why u constantly mention bad actions that certain individuals do an than blame islam. Whats wit this narrow mindness. Its really get daft that actions carried out by certain individuals has religion to blame for it. If u wanna play that game than i can blame millions of things done by christians to protect christianity. I.e illuminaties being killed because they proved christianity wrong using science. Woman being killed because someone claimed she was a witch. Even today woman is degraded in england. I.e woman having lessor pay than man even though they do the same job. Look at all the wars america has started in this decade alone. An yet they still wanna have was wit iran an syria. Havent they still learned that these people dont have nuclear weapons. No children should have a bad up bringing but america made sure that the children of iraq an afganistan grow up with plain hatred
198.
srizals
August 1, 2009 • 4:46 pm

comment deleted due to abusive language.
199.
srizals
August 1, 2009 • 5:12 pm

ibnsahr, brave boy or a girl or..? or a scary ghost? of me or tryin to me? Tell me who u r plz..Don’t be afraid now… Don’t be shy…come to me…. come to the light….show yourself. Let us all know at least what n where do u come from? Do u have any country? Do u have any brain cell? What’s your neuron counts? Are u living in Palestine? Am I talking with a sewage tank cleaner? A gents penny retriever? A toilet cleaner? Because u sure smells like one. Prove me wrong chap. Geez..these people don’t have any conducts of honour whatsoever. Ok, rules, rules. Do introduce yourself b4 even thinking of challenging me in here. No degrading whatsoever n present your arguments not in cut n paste pagessss of books. I want u urself talking, debating with me. Not some quotations, no parroting, if I would debate with quotations, I would debate with Ali Sina himself. But he’s a sick coward himself hiding behind his web n claiming to the world that no Muslim can beat him. Ok, keep ur money. Keep to atheist. We don’t want a buffoon like u. Ur useless. Shame on you. We don’t want u. U don’t belong to Muslims. U belong with the Darwinist. But if you still wanna degrade me, mark my words, it’s useless, u wanna know my brainwaves, suckers, its 10.98 Alpha, all the time….What’s your brainwave?
200.
srizals
August 1, 2009 • 5:22 pm

I mean when u r not on booze, relaxing pills n stimulants n pigs…I’m not calling u names now R_not. I’m talking to a geek that thinks he’s somebody.
Yeah, yeah. I’m a teacher. Teaching students from 7 years old up to 58 years old. Course conductors, Facilitators, Part time tutor, All time lecturer. How old r u? My students! Yes, do impress me with ur stupid remarks. N maybe I’ll noticed u. Ur intellectual remnants I mean.
201.
Claude
August 1, 2009 • 5:55 pm

London Spirit,

Q : 8; 67 “It is not fitting for a Prophet that he should have prisonners of war until he has thoroughly subdued the land.”

According to you, this verse concerns only Muhammad , and the “land ” is Arabia, isn’t it ?

Q : 13; 41 ” See they not that we gradually reduce the land (in their control ) from its outlying borders”

What “land” ? Arabia ? Who is “we” ? Muhammad or Allah ? Allah. Allah was speaking about Arabia only ? Allah wanted Islam spreaded in Arabia only ? he wanted “the Truth and the Good, spreaded in Arabia only ?

Q : 9; 29

“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth (even if they are )of the People of the Book, untill they pay the jizyah ( poll tax) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.”

This also concerns only Arabia and no other country ? What means “fight” ? Persuade with overwhelming arguments ?

LS, can you assertain us that this was limited to Arabia and to their inhabitants and ordered only since Muhammad’s life time. Explain to us why Muslims misunderstood and corrupted the teachings of the Quran when they invaded Spain,Perse, Afghanistan and India, and slained so many hundred of thousandsf of people.

Had Spain declared war on Muslims 400 years before the Crusades ?

If Islam is Good and what is outside Islam is Evil, if God himself said infidels are evil and ordered to kill them if they resist, or subdue them, how can Muslims understand that this only concerns Arabia and “defensive war” ?

Where comes the notion of Caliphate ? From where comes this “Islam will dominate the world”.

This is your own dream, not Muhammad -Allah’s dream and order. Just your own personnal dream, or wishes; your own utopia, not Allah’s.

“Top politicans in uk such as tony blair gordon brown holloway say on tv tat islam condems terrorist attacks. Even the prince of england speaks only good about islam an is even considerin converting. Even the president of vsa speaks verses from the quran in relation to peace in a conference.”

Yes, indeed, Christians condemn terrorism. This is not new. We seldom ear Muslims. You say vsa “speaks verses from the quran in relation to peace in a conference.” Could you, pleace quote them ? “No compulsion in religion” hey, ? Which means “fight those who believe not in Allah….etc.

Please LS, make all this a little bit more understandable for us.
202.
srizals
August 1, 2009 • 9:09 pm

Ohh. Spanish Inquisitions. Scary! The Spaniard. Hmm….
203.
srizals
August 1, 2009 • 9:48 pm

Posted on Cranmer, as a warning 2 u guys, moderators!

Oh, guys, this is hilarious, my comment was deleted 4 abusive language by the moderators of faithfreedom.org. Not so free now are we. N, the abusive language? For calling someone that beens calling God, Muhammad, Islam n Muslims n of course especially me as a retard. Well, most of the hideous remarks on us n God were not even moderated, but…than again…I don’t have a freedom at faithfreedom.org after all. U see, my offensive language is when I said if I would have wanted to debate with quotations, I would have debated with Ali Sina n I said we, Muslims don’t want u n just be atheist, n it was very offensive 4 him. Mr. Dullard eh? He’s been dehumanizing my love, the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. all this while n trying to shame us Muslims, well, like almost since he left Islam n yet…hmmmm…I gotta copy all my comments b4 all of them are deleted by him, the saviour of the truth. Nah, you don’t wanna 2 go there. Its ugly. I’m not in this mode like I’m talking 2 u guys in here. I dealt with US arrogant SOB n of course Bs..I won’t go there if I were u….Geez…I should have save that comment n repost it here as a comment of abusive language deleted by moderators of faithFREEDOM.org, they do have beautiful storks flying banner afterall. Hmmm…maybe those guys are storks anyway…
Cranmer I’m voting 4 u. The guys at faithfreedom.org n danielpipes.org r making me hard n dizzy 2 post my comments, but they 4got, I’m a holy warrior of Allah. I’m blessed with this brainwave of 10.98 alpha all the time. Lucky me, Alhamdulillah.

Anyway, what’s your brainwave dutch?
4.32 a.m. in the morning, n the frogs r really singing n guys b4 I forgot.
La Hot springs was really remarkable n mind recharging. Do u know what I found most interesting there?

I tried to look 4 its sources, the spring I mean, n do u know what I’ve found? A gushing of hot water coming out from several opening from cracks of solid mineralite stones. Subhanallah! Read the verses of Al Quran that I’ve posted 4 u guys, that Allah mentioned 2 us, His parable of our heart with stone. I’m not re-posting it. But I don’t think Muhammad can imagine what I saw in the desert he dwelled in because u see, he lived in a desert, n yes, the spring of zam zam came gushing out not from rock like in Malaysia, sorry, in the lands of the Malay. N I don’t think the Nasrani nor the Secretive Rabbi told him about it…er..because they don’t know about it too some 1,400 years ago.
Now do u understand why I’m doing this preacher? I tried to photographed the springs but my camera ran out of batteries. I will go back there, Insya Allah, n re-post it in my blog to prove 2 u guys I’m not cookin a lie like Ali Sina, A deluded Syiah Muslim that had thought all Muslims were like Syiah. Well, he was dead wrong. He forgot about us, The follower of the ways of Muhammad, The Union of Muslims. As Sunnah Wal Jama’ah. The mainstream Muslims. The sane Muslims. The Moderate Muslims, True followers of the beloved n wise n gentle Nabi Muhammad s.a.w. which he had used abusive language everywhere in his postings n of course went on unpunished, till a bunch of lowly Muslims, stumbled upon his lies. Hmm…this is going 2 be 2 easy 4 me. These Atheist r_not that smart after all.

Don’t delete my comments again, schmucks. I would only re-post it again n again in all parts of the world.
204.
srizals
August 1, 2009 • 10:04 pm

I’m not just in this blog dealing with Hatemongers n their lies n attack on Islam. I’m everywhere. Well, I mean, The holy warriors of Allah in the Worldwide Web. What do u expect? We are one, yeah, yeah, just like trinity!
205.
Marie
August 1, 2009 • 11:38 pm

londonspirit when you find the answer to my last accusation let me know so we can move on.
206.
srizals
August 1, 2009 • 11:47 pm

In the lands of the Malay, there is a famous biscuits known to all of us, Malaysians, Marie, Marie.
Yes, your name is on these biscuits. Fancy that Marie. Gotta go. I’m sheathing my keris now. This battle is over 4 me.

4 now.
207.
srizals
August 2, 2009 • 12:05 am

6:47 a.m. n the jungle fowls r crowing like mad with unspoiled gigantic trees saved n protected by Malays from ever hungry Chauvinistic Kiasu Chinese, no, not followers of Confucious, Atheist just like U guys! (not all Chinese, remember I’m not like u guys, generalisator) foraging hungrily illegally in the forests that doesn’t belong to them in the first place. Yes, also their whores imported from China of course, China dolls, their Jewish like money lender aka along, torturers of default borrowers, their drugs, some deluded stupid Malays who thinks they r Chinese are of course the buyers, no these people craved Ecstasy pills with booze, What do u expect? N poaching on our wildlife just like the thais buddhist that kept on smuggling our kerang seedlings, a shellfish, delicacy in thai’s food u so adored, Our fragrant wood, the Malayan Tiger, The pangolins, The Owls, Our little black turtles, our sea turtles. Geez…Non Muslims are really Eaters of everything eh? Gotta save this comment just in case coz I’m an abuser c, just like Ali Sina. Ops! sorry, sorry, I..I..I take it back…Don’t delete me ok! Catch u later!
Got to stop myself! Calm down now alpha. Gotta go somewhere else.
208.
Demsci
August 2, 2009 • 1:38 am

Don’t blame Islam for what Srizals is doing.
209.
srizals
August 2, 2009 • 5:13 am

Thanx Demsci, owe u one. Descendents of Killers, Oppressors and Slavers. Did I forgot something else? Oh, Confused reader of facts, that can’t read through the stupid lies and unproven n unsupported so called accepted truth. Is it a universal truth? That’s the question my enemy. At u!
210.
srizals
August 2, 2009 • 5:35 am

Of what Demsci? Are u a Damsel in Distress or something? Read up this blog man? err…girl??? The title is mostly absurd. Get my motive fellow human?

Statistics, simple plz. Valid plz. Universal Truth, plz. Stop lying plz. N I’ll treat U with respects if U deserve my respect.

Over crowding won’t help our readers now won’t it, Marie. Calling me names or associating me with dehumanizing technique won’t work out either. why? I’m still alive aren’t I. Not like Nabi Muhammad s.a.w. Not like Michael Jackson, that got you guys banging even before lying peacefully in his tomb, remember?

His Rabbi ‘friend’ n even the Anglican of the Ex masters of the Commonwealth. Just 4 rumours about his faith be4 his death. Geezz…Don’t tell me U r new to the news that do Quantum leap from countries 2 countries.
Were U that stupid German Guard that ‘accidently’ gunned down Marwa as-Sharbini’s husband that tried to protect his 3 months old pregnant wife that got ur special treatment of 18 stabs to the death in a German Court Room right in front of her three year old son!

Ohhh. U didn’t know about it, eh? No wonder U r bewildered with all the hostility u received from me eh?
(But everyone seems to know about Neda, a woman accidentally shot during a demonstration in Iran (the only one that got shot out of thousands, ermm). Come on man, the Syiah is full of emotion, yes, but they are not that crazy, Hell, they are not Chinese who gunned down unarmed demonstrators in Tienamenn in China and rolled them over with tanks. Oh! U forgot already eh? Just sure shows who u r now didn’t it.

The past can’t be amended, boys n girls. Not like ur faith. Do u even have one? R u an ex Christian or something. Erm…r u a Jew? a Zionist? a confused human intoxicating with consuming the truth n the lies all at once. Poor u. Shame on U!
211.
ibnsahr
August 2, 2009 • 5:42 am

LS,
***ibnsahr there are 1 billion or so muslims who can tell u that the verses in the quran in relation of killin is in the context of war. An there are about a few thousands that say otherwise***

why they use explosive as a device to make their point, as such thing only used in war, islam will always at war untill all religion in the world for satan alone, why don’t you and 1 billion or so condemned those attentian seekers whose spoiled the image of satanic peacefull religion

why allah aka satan put verses in the wrong contex, surah al nisaa supposed to be about women why satan fill out 2/3 of chapter with hatred verses that has got nothing to do with women, you didn’t answer that last time i ask you

so when you said people posting videos which has no relation to islam, isn’t it wise to ask why satan all knowing, put verses that has nothing to do with the contex of the chapter?
apparently both of them were done by human that make mistake

***marie i dont no why u constantly mention bad actions that certain individuals do an than blame islam***
why suicide bomber always muslim (at least for last two decades)??
why islam teaching lead some willing to blow themeself up
212.
srizals
August 2, 2009 • 5:46 am

Whoa, wait a minute. I’m starting to think that I’m the only guy in here. If this is the case I’m gonna lose out to you girls, the master of multi tasking brains with 2.5% weight ratio of her body mass. I’m gonna get pulverized. No wonder u guys, sorry girls are such a reader. Oh man! I should have known.
213.
srizals
August 2, 2009 • 7:16 am

ibnsahr,
Where were u this couple of centuries. But I’m holding my tongue. I’ll come at ya when LS has responded 2 u.
Watch ur mouth now deary, ibnsahr aka drunkard, Eater of everything that exist in this world, especially twisted truth n whole lies. Why r ur hands tremblin like that?
214.
ibnsahr
August 2, 2009 • 11:17 am

srizals fagot,

for a moment, stop your childish act, and please answer,
WHY ALL SUICIDE BOMBER ARE MUSLIMS??
215.
srizals
August 2, 2009 • 1:50 pm

Sorry, sorry, Mr. Dullard, sorry, ibnsahr, mind the brainwave now won’t we, u don’t wanna speed up the process of depleting ur neurons now won’t U moron.

Ahhh..the call to pray just in a nick of time. Be patient now girl, man, Neanderthals. Gotta see my maker in submission. Hang out with your devil, booze, hookers, porn, masturbating gels while u r at it. I am going after U, as…TOT (in a hole). (Self Censorship coz there’s a lot of decent people reading this vile, C). Don’t run away now chicken. Miss Happy Feet. Pekok, kok, kok, kok, Pekok,,Pekak badak!
Dok au mende satu!

C ya!

Please oh Mr Policeman, don’t delete me plz! Its already cut n paste in somewhere else as a safety precautions…Abusive language eh? Funny guys..
216.
srizals
August 2, 2009 • 6:20 pm

Well, 4 starters, Ur question is very wrong n I don’t think Sinhalese Buddhist would be smiling upon reading ur question in here Mr. Dullard, sorry, maggot!

Geez, U really r something, don’t show just how perplexed u r to our readers now boy!
Wait a minute. I’m in the fighting mode. Gotta kill the music.
Ok, where were we, ahh, yes, yes, your killer question eh? I’m impressed. Not so stupid now r we.
217.
srizals
August 2, 2009 • 6:32 pm

Well, after witnessing so much brutal killings, bombing, gassing of the Jews, Dead children of the Jews resulted on Christian’s brutal pogroms, Little heads roll over at Maluku chopped to pieces by Christians Batak, Watch in horror of stockpiled Muslim youth with their hands bound to their backs n arranged like logs one on the top of another, layer after layer, compressed to eh, safe space in the military trucks of the mighty n brave Thais Buddhist peaceful but sex lunatics armies n of course to save oil. What?
Check your geography lessons boys n girls, The majority of countries that is blessed with swine flus, sorry, with the black blood of the earth are in Chechnya, n Azerbaijan, deep in the heart of Soviet Russia. In the middle east, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Qatar Dubai bla,bla, bla had nothing but sand n sun. Stop it boys n girls, why are u guys gigling like that. U wanna me give u some whopping now?

Ok, pardon the child in me. Coz c, he will always be in me. What do u expect, toyol? A separate killing n torture machines that called themselves the brave soldiers of the greatest democracy in the world, the USA slayers of babies, toddlers n children, Sick Rapist or Iraqis, Mutilaters, sorry, Meat choppers n happy burner of witches, Cranmer, Spanish Muslims, Jews n even ’suspected’ heretic Spanish Christians themselves. Read up boys n girls, the water boarding at Gitmo is nothing compared to the bold Spaniard!

Ok back to the present. I don’t think my preacher friend would agree on me of constantly refering of the past. But C, I’m a teacher! I have to teach my students of the present tense, but it would not make any sense without learning the past tense n of course it would be totally absurd for me to hide from them the future tense.
218.
srizals
August 2, 2009 • 6:33 pm

Am I deleted yet. Guess not. Don’t forget to save these comments Mr. Alpha brain, be4 submitting yourself to God, ops, sorry, to this blog.
219.
srizals
August 2, 2009 • 6:37 pm

Well, like when Lambert, the sheepish Lion, Lambert, the wild n woolly sheep, emmbeeeekkkk. Did u watch it Miss Dullard? Well, something snapped inside of them, the terrorist I mean. They were raging lions. N the rest is history.
Come on Huminist? Humans go crazy under constant opression, with babies dropping down dead like flies, u get crazy see. Do you have a baby, Feed it to the dogs n you’ll understand what drives the terrorist.
Geez, not so smart at all in the end it seems, See ya Old man.
220.
srizals
August 2, 2009 • 6:43 pm

Ops, I forgot, maggot!

Being a Muslim, they can no longer value their lives 4 being the hideous killers that they themselves had hated so much. C, they are becoming like the ones they despised the most. Sadly, They have become Slayers of not armies n heavily armed soldiers, but instead helpless defenseless Civilians. So, they deserve to kill the innocents in order to inflict the pains of losing the innocence to the west. Why? For their backings of course, be it financially n foremost weaponry of course. N the thunderous applause when Zionist Jewish armies vanquished not Muslims Brave, Babies for God sake. Can I have your baby dog n ripped it to pieces right there under your nose! What would u have felt. N it is only a pet. Get my point, Old man?

Any more questions boys n girls?
Here kitty, kitty, r u goin to pounce on my lies now girl?
221.
srizals
August 2, 2009 • 6:49 pm

There’s something inside me that pulls beneath the surface
Consuming….confusing…..
This lack of self-control I fear is never ending
Controlling…..I can’t seem

…………………………………..To find myself again
My walls are closing in

(without a sense of confidence and I’m convinced that there’s just too much pressure to take)

I’ve felt this way before
So insecure………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
222.
srizals
August 2, 2009 • 7:03 pm

Crawling…….. in…….. my skin………….
These wounds………….they will not heal…………………
Fear is how I fall………………………….
Confusing what is real………
223.
srizals
August 2, 2009 • 7:21 pm

They think they deserve to kill the innocents, but in the process, of course, deserve to die in the gruesome death along with their victims. Well, not like all of u cowards, kill, kill, kill, the babies, die, die, die. Sicko!

They r Muslims 4 God sake! Their conscious would drive them mad if they continued on living with the blood of the innocents on their hands! Kapish?

I tried so hard n got so far…………….
In the end………….It doesn’t really matters……………………….
224.
srizals
August 2, 2009 • 7:51 pm

Chiquitita, tell me whats wrong
Youre enchained by your own sorrow
In your eyes there is no hope for tomorrow
How I hate to see you like this
There is no way you can deny it
I can see that youre oh so sad, so quiet

Chiquitita, tell me the truth
Im a shoulder you can cry on
Your best friend, Im the one you must rely on
You were always sure of yourself
Now I see youve broken a feather
I hope we can patch it up together

Chiquitita, you and I know
How the heartaches come and they go and the scars theyre leaving
Youll be dancing once again and the pain will end
You will have no time for grieving
Chiquitita, you and I cry
But the sun is still in the sky and shining above you
Let me hear you sing once more like you did before
Sing a new song, chiquitita
Try once more like you did before
Sing a new song, chiquitita

So the walls came tumbling down
And your loves a blown out candle
All is gone and it seems too hard to handle
Chiquitita, tell me the truth
There is no way you can deny it
I see that youre oh so sad, so quiet

Chiquitita, you and I know
How the heartaches come and they go and the scars theyre leaving
Youll be dancing once again and the pain will end
You will have no time for grieving
Chiquitita, you and I cry
But the sun is still in the sky and shining above you
Let me hear you sing once more like you did before
Sing a new song, chiquitita
Try once more like you did before
Sing a new song, chiquitita
Try once more like you did before
Sing a new song, chiquitita
225.
srizals
August 2, 2009 • 8:19 pm

ONCE A LONG, LONG TIME AGO
SETTING OUT TO FIND OUR DREAMS
LOST IN MEMORIES OF OLDEN DAYS…….:

SOMETIMES RISING IN THE SPRING
GLOWING, SHINING CAME THE SUN
GOLDEN DAY BEAMS COME THROUGH TO ME NOW

THOSE WHO KNOW THE FIRE BIRD
TRY TO FIND FOREVER THE DREAMS
TRY TO FIND FOREVER THE WAY,
MY WAY…………………

(CHORUS)
CARAVAN, JOURNEY IN THE SKY
AS THE SUN COMES OUT FROM THE DAY

CARAVAN, WE KNOW WHO WE ARE
WE DISCOVER WHERE OR WHEN

CARAVAN, NOW WE FIND A LOVE
LOVE SHIMMERING AND SOON OUR LOVE IS GONE

COME WITH ME AND TAKE MY HAND
MEMORIES OF THE PAST UNFOLD

AND WITH YOU I LIVE THEM ONCE AGAIN

FROM MY BEATING HEART, MY HAND
FEEL MY WARMTH AND LOVE WITHIN

AND I WONDER WHEN THE SPRING WILL COME

DO WE EVER REALLY KNOW FOR SURE?
WILL WE TRAVEL ON AND ON?

SOMEDAY WE’LL BE STANDING UP
UP TO LEAVE.,……
226.
srizals
August 2, 2009 • 8:27 pm

And now, the end is near;
And so I face the final curtain.
My friend, I’ll say it clear,
I’ll state my case, of which I’m certain.

I’ve lived a life thats full.
I’ve traveled each and every highway;
And more, much more than this,
I did it my way.

Regrets, I’ve had a few;
But then again, too few to mention.
I did what I had to do
And saw it through without exemption.

I planned each charted course;
Each careful step along the byway,
But more, much more than this,
I did it my way.

Yes, there were times, I’m sure you knew
When I bit off more than I could chew.
But through it all, when there was doubt,
I ate it up and spit it out.
I faced it all and I stood tall;
And did it my way.

I’ve loved, I’ve laughed and cried.
I’ve had my fill; my share of losing.
And now, as tears subside,
I find it all so amusing.

To think I did all that;
And may I say – not in a shy way,
Oh No, oh no not me,
I did it my way.

For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has naught.
To say the things he truly feels;
And not the words of one who kneels.
The record shows I took the blows -
And did it my way!
Yes, it was my…. way..