Oswin said...Srizals : they ain't OUR dominos.
How can you say : ''...follow Islam fully, would lessen the error'' in the same breath as the ''...hatred towards tyranny'' ?
A wholly 'Islamic' Egypt would be that tyrany! As it is elsewhere, as it is in Iran.
Hopefully the Egyptian people will opt for a third course ...I'm crossing my fingers, but I am not sanguine.
How can you say : ''...follow Islam fully, would lessen the error'' in the same breath as the ''...hatred towards tyranny'' ?
A wholly 'Islamic' Egypt would be that tyrany! As it is elsewhere, as it is in Iran.
Hopefully the Egyptian people will opt for a third course ...I'm crossing my fingers, but I am not sanguine.
srizals said...Not in Malaysia, Oswin, and also in most other Islamic countries. As in Iran, they have democratic presidential election I think. So it is close to democracy. I don't think we should follow democracy blindly without considering local atmosphere. We have to adopt and adapt, to make it work for us.
But we should really consider of letting the 'powerful' ruling elites rule us longer than 5 - 10 years and have more able people participating in politics. The longer they taste the sweetness of power and easy wealth that comes with it, the sorrier we all will be. And the average Joe would have to spend wisely in order to make ends meet. The 'powerful' spends lavishly, as always. It’s not their money anyway, in wars and fancy white elephant idol-like grandeur or ensuring their cronies have gold and diamonds for breakfast from certain important projects for the ordinary people to see, never to eat and benefit from it.
But most political world are seeing two party system, even though they didn't put it that way officially, so the choices for us are getting less varied than ever. We would end up voting for the same corruptible and incompetent leaders of the same breed.
Interestingly, we are seeing more and more billionaires and millionaires in the world. Are the men getting richer than their own country? Whatever happened to good old taxing system and giving back to the society? Is monopoly and manipulation continues to be the rule of the day? Then, the ruling elites and the manipulators are doing a great job of making us busy hating and killing each other while escaping our radar.
And before I forget, getting richer and richer in these short lives of theirs, profiting on our fears. I despise any nation and anyone that prefers killing and torturing the people in order to monopolise lives, lands, power and wealth.
Len, I'm still waiting for your proof. Sorry if I seemed impatient. Time is not a luxury I can afford.
But we should really consider of letting the 'powerful' ruling elites rule us longer than 5 - 10 years and have more able people participating in politics. The longer they taste the sweetness of power and easy wealth that comes with it, the sorrier we all will be. And the average Joe would have to spend wisely in order to make ends meet. The 'powerful' spends lavishly, as always. It’s not their money anyway, in wars and fancy white elephant idol-like grandeur or ensuring their cronies have gold and diamonds for breakfast from certain important projects for the ordinary people to see, never to eat and benefit from it.
But most political world are seeing two party system, even though they didn't put it that way officially, so the choices for us are getting less varied than ever. We would end up voting for the same corruptible and incompetent leaders of the same breed.
Interestingly, we are seeing more and more billionaires and millionaires in the world. Are the men getting richer than their own country? Whatever happened to good old taxing system and giving back to the society? Is monopoly and manipulation continues to be the rule of the day? Then, the ruling elites and the manipulators are doing a great job of making us busy hating and killing each other while escaping our radar.
And before I forget, getting richer and richer in these short lives of theirs, profiting on our fears. I despise any nation and anyone that prefers killing and torturing the people in order to monopolise lives, lands, power and wealth.
Len, I'm still waiting for your proof. Sorry if I seemed impatient. Time is not a luxury I can afford.
len said...Srizels,
You have asked me several questions,one about the Trinity, one about Paul,one about the 'comforter'.
1, The Trinity.
God tells us in Genesis 1:26-27 "And Elohim said ‘Let-us-make man in our-image, according-to-our-likeness. . . . And Elohim created man in His-image, in the image of Elohim He-created him; male and female He-created them." How did God create man? He tells us in Genesis 2:7 "Then Yehovah-Elohim formed man of dust from the-ground, and breathed into his-nostrils the spirit of lives; and man became-a-living soul." God tells us in this passage that He created man three in one just like He is Three in One. Man has a spirit and a soul and a body. Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." Man is spirit and soul and body. Take anyone of these away and you no longer have a Man. However, a man is not three men in one Man. One Man is spirit and soul and body. In the same way God is not three God's in one God (as the enemies of Christianity claim Christians teach, but do not) but one God manifested in three Persons: Father and Son and Holy Spirit. Take any one of these away and you no longer have the one and only true God. Just as Man is of one essence manifested in spirit and soul and body; so God is of one essence manifested in three Persons: the Father and Son and Holy Spirit. One Man of one essence and one God of one essence. The Nature of Man is spirit and soul and body. The Nature of God is Father and Son and Holy Spirit.
You have asked me several questions,one about the Trinity, one about Paul,one about the 'comforter'.
1, The Trinity.
God tells us in Genesis 1:26-27 "And Elohim said ‘Let-us-make man in our-image, according-to-our-likeness. . . . And Elohim created man in His-image, in the image of Elohim He-created him; male and female He-created them." How did God create man? He tells us in Genesis 2:7 "Then Yehovah-Elohim formed man of dust from the-ground, and breathed into his-nostrils the spirit of lives; and man became-a-living soul." God tells us in this passage that He created man three in one just like He is Three in One. Man has a spirit and a soul and a body. Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." Man is spirit and soul and body. Take anyone of these away and you no longer have a Man. However, a man is not three men in one Man. One Man is spirit and soul and body. In the same way God is not three God's in one God (as the enemies of Christianity claim Christians teach, but do not) but one God manifested in three Persons: Father and Son and Holy Spirit. Take any one of these away and you no longer have the one and only true God. Just as Man is of one essence manifested in spirit and soul and body; so God is of one essence manifested in three Persons: the Father and Son and Holy Spirit. One Man of one essence and one God of one essence. The Nature of Man is spirit and soul and body. The Nature of God is Father and Son and Holy Spirit.
4 February 2011 18:31
len said...
len said...Jesus Of the Bible is not, and never could be, the 'Isa' of the Koran.
The 'Isa' of the Koran was never crucified, he never rose from the dead, he is merely another prophet.
The Islamic Jesus is a created being: ‘The similitude of Jesus before Allah is that of Adam: he created him from dust, then said to him, ‘Be’: and he was.’ Koran: Sura 3:59. In the Bible Jesus is revealed as an eternal being who said of himself, ‘Before Abraham was I am’ (John 8.58). He is the creator not a created being: ‘All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made’. John 1:3.
'Isa 'and Jesus Christ are clearly totally different people.
The 'Isa' of the Koran was never crucified, he never rose from the dead, he is merely another prophet.
The Islamic Jesus is a created being: ‘The similitude of Jesus before Allah is that of Adam: he created him from dust, then said to him, ‘Be’: and he was.’ Koran: Sura 3:59. In the Bible Jesus is revealed as an eternal being who said of himself, ‘Before Abraham was I am’ (John 8.58). He is the creator not a created being: ‘All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made’. John 1:3.
'Isa 'and Jesus Christ are clearly totally different people.
srizals said...Thanks Len for sharing your point of view. How about Paul and the comforter?
len said...Srizels,
The Comforter,
JOHN 14:15-17: "If you love me you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him for he lives with you and will be in you."
What Jesus is saying here is I will send another exactly like me. Identical to me.
This Comforter is plainly a Spirit being( because you cannot see Him, and He will be IN you.
The Holy Spirit is like Jesus. Not as in a physical body, but as in Spirit. a) II Cor 3:17 states "Now the Lord is the Spirit... There is a relationship between the Spirit and the Lord, and both are said to dwell in the believer (see Romans 8:9-11). Galatians 2:20 says "...Christ lives in me...". Galatians 4:6,7 states "God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts.." Acts 16:6,7 states the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Jesus are the same.
"Parakletos" is the Greek N. T. word for "Comforter", literally “called to one’s side, i.e., to one’s aid”. It denotes a legal assistant, counsel for the defense, an advocate, one who pleads another’s cause, an intercessor. (From Vine's Exp. Dictionary. of N.T. Words, p200) [14].
...........
Some Muslims assert that the original word in the N.T. was 'periklutos' - i.e. 'praised one', which is 'Ahmad' in Arabic. ['Ahmad', or 'Praised One' is a name ascribed to Muhammad]. This is a baseless assertion. There is no evidence at all supporting this claim. There are thousands of N.T. manuscripts pre-dating Islam and not one of these contains the word 'periklutos', anywhere. Muslims like to charge Christians with changing their Bible - 'tahrif' (corruption) of their Scriptures, but it is Muslims who are guilty of 'tahrif' when they claim that the original word was 'periklutos'.
The Comforter,
JOHN 14:15-17: "If you love me you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him for he lives with you and will be in you."
What Jesus is saying here is I will send another exactly like me. Identical to me.
This Comforter is plainly a Spirit being( because you cannot see Him, and He will be IN you.
The Holy Spirit is like Jesus. Not as in a physical body, but as in Spirit. a) II Cor 3:17 states "Now the Lord is the Spirit... There is a relationship between the Spirit and the Lord, and both are said to dwell in the believer (see Romans 8:9-11). Galatians 2:20 says "...Christ lives in me...". Galatians 4:6,7 states "God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts.." Acts 16:6,7 states the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Jesus are the same.
"Parakletos" is the Greek N. T. word for "Comforter", literally “called to one’s side, i.e., to one’s aid”. It denotes a legal assistant, counsel for the defense, an advocate, one who pleads another’s cause, an intercessor. (From Vine's Exp. Dictionary. of N.T. Words, p200) [14].
...........
Some Muslims assert that the original word in the N.T. was 'periklutos' - i.e. 'praised one', which is 'Ahmad' in Arabic. ['Ahmad', or 'Praised One' is a name ascribed to Muhammad]. This is a baseless assertion. There is no evidence at all supporting this claim. There are thousands of N.T. manuscripts pre-dating Islam and not one of these contains the word 'periklutos', anywhere. Muslims like to charge Christians with changing their Bible - 'tahrif' (corruption) of their Scriptures, but it is Muslims who are guilty of 'tahrif' when they claim that the original word was 'periklutos'.
srizals said...What about Paul? Why is he considered as the centre for Christianity?
Anonymous said...Srizels,
Sorry for the interval.
Paul is somewhat of a controversial figure in Christianity,started off persecuting followers of Christ, had a revelation of the risen Christ (which totally changed him ) he then preached the Gospel.
I suppose Paul is an interpreter of Christianity(in some detail)
Jesus never totally revealed all His purposes in detail, deliberately, because if Satan had been able to put all the pieces together( of prophesy and God`s intentions)he(satan) would never have crucified Christ(in fact he would have done all in his power to prevent the Crucifiction).
Paul is sometimes accused of'doing away' with God`s Law but this I believe is a misinterpretation of what Paul intended because he quite plainly says ,
Romans 3:31 (NKJV) Do we then make void the Law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
In Romans in the Bible, Paul goes into this in much more detail.Paul quite clearly upholds the Law of God.
Sorry for the interval.
Paul is somewhat of a controversial figure in Christianity,started off persecuting followers of Christ, had a revelation of the risen Christ (which totally changed him ) he then preached the Gospel.
I suppose Paul is an interpreter of Christianity(in some detail)
Jesus never totally revealed all His purposes in detail, deliberately, because if Satan had been able to put all the pieces together( of prophesy and God`s intentions)he(satan) would never have crucified Christ(in fact he would have done all in his power to prevent the Crucifiction).
Paul is sometimes accused of'doing away' with God`s Law but this I believe is a misinterpretation of what Paul intended because he quite plainly says ,
Romans 3:31 (NKJV) Do we then make void the Law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
In Romans in the Bible, Paul goes into this in much more detail.Paul quite clearly upholds the Law of God.
Not at all anon 19:26, I appreciate your views. In Islam, the rivalry between man and Satan is clearly stated in the Koran.
When the first man was created and designated the position as God's assistant on Earth, even the angels questioned God's plan and later understood them when He showed to the angels, the ability of man which the angels do not know of. The ability to learn. Azazil was not pleased either. He refused to bow down to Adam a.s. when he was ordered to do so by his Creator, and hence became an infidel, those who do not believe in God's wisdom. The jealously and proudness had caused him to rebel against God. And becomes our mortal enemy until the End of Days. Do you know why Satan hated us so much that he would do anything in his power to lure us away from the right and the light?
[7:10]
We established you on earth, and created in it means of living for you. Little you appreciate.
[7:11]
We created you, then gave you a shape, then We said to the angels, “Prostrate yourselves before ’Ādam.” So, they all prostrated themselves, except Iblīs (Satan). He did not join those who fell prostrate.
[7:12]
Allah said, “What has prevented you from prostrating when I ordered you?” He said, “I am better than him. You have created me of fire, and created him of clay.”
[7:13]
He said, “Then, get you down from here, it is not for you to show arrogance here. So, get out. You are one of the degraded.
[7:14]
He said, “Then give me respite until a day when all will be resurrected.
[7:15]
He (Allah) said, “You are granted respite’’.
[7:16]
He said, “Now that You have led me astray, I will certainly sit for them (in ambush) on Your straight path.
[7:17]
Then I will come upon them from their front side and from their behind, and from their right and from their left. You will not find most of them grateful.
[7:18]
He (Allah) said, “Get out of here, condemned, rejected. Indeed, whosoever will follow you from among them, I will fill Hell with all of you together.
[17:15]
Whoever adopts the right path does so for his own benefit, and whoever goes astray does so to his own detriment, and no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another, and it is not Our way to punish (anyone) unless We send a Messenger.
[17:61]
(Remember) when We said to the angels, “Prostrate yourself before ’Ādam.” So, they all prostrated, except Iblīs (Satan). He said, “Shall I prostrate before the one You have created from mud?”
[17:62]
He (Iblīs) added, “Tell me, this one whom You have honored more than me, if You give me respite till the Doomsday, I will subdue his progeny, except a few of them.”
When the first man was created and designated the position as God's assistant on Earth, even the angels questioned God's plan and later understood them when He showed to the angels, the ability of man which the angels do not know of. The ability to learn. Azazil was not pleased either. He refused to bow down to Adam a.s. when he was ordered to do so by his Creator, and hence became an infidel, those who do not believe in God's wisdom. The jealously and proudness had caused him to rebel against God. And becomes our mortal enemy until the End of Days. Do you know why Satan hated us so much that he would do anything in his power to lure us away from the right and the light?
[7:10]
We established you on earth, and created in it means of living for you. Little you appreciate.
[7:11]
We created you, then gave you a shape, then We said to the angels, “Prostrate yourselves before ’Ādam.” So, they all prostrated themselves, except Iblīs (Satan). He did not join those who fell prostrate.
[7:12]
Allah said, “What has prevented you from prostrating when I ordered you?” He said, “I am better than him. You have created me of fire, and created him of clay.”
[7:13]
He said, “Then, get you down from here, it is not for you to show arrogance here. So, get out. You are one of the degraded.
[7:14]
He said, “Then give me respite until a day when all will be resurrected.
[7:15]
He (Allah) said, “You are granted respite’’.
[7:16]
He said, “Now that You have led me astray, I will certainly sit for them (in ambush) on Your straight path.
[7:17]
Then I will come upon them from their front side and from their behind, and from their right and from their left. You will not find most of them grateful.
[7:18]
He (Allah) said, “Get out of here, condemned, rejected. Indeed, whosoever will follow you from among them, I will fill Hell with all of you together.
[17:15]
Whoever adopts the right path does so for his own benefit, and whoever goes astray does so to his own detriment, and no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another, and it is not Our way to punish (anyone) unless We send a Messenger.
[17:61]
(Remember) when We said to the angels, “Prostrate yourself before ’Ādam.” So, they all prostrated, except Iblīs (Satan). He said, “Shall I prostrate before the one You have created from mud?”
[17:62]
He (Iblīs) added, “Tell me, this one whom You have honored more than me, if You give me respite till the Doomsday, I will subdue his progeny, except a few of them.”
srizals said...[17:63]
He (Allah) said, “Go then, for whoever of them follows you, the Hell shall be the recompense of you all, a full recompense.
[17:64]
Entice with your voice those of them whom you can, and rally against them your horsemen and your footmen, and share with them in their wealth and their children, and make promises to them” - and Satan promises them nothing but delusion -
[17:65]
“As for My servants, you have no control over them, and your Lord is enough to look after (everything).”
[38:71]
When your Lord said to the angels, “I am going to create man from clay.
[38:72]
So, once I make him perfectly and breath My spirit into him, you must fall down in prostration before him.”
[38:73]
Then, the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together -
[38:74]
except Iblīs (Satan). He waxed proud, and became one of the disbelievers.
[38:75]
He (Allah) said, “O Iblīs, what did prevent you from prostrating yourself before what I created with My hands? Did you wax proud or were you among the lofty ones?”
[38:76]
He said, “I am better than him. You created me from fire, and created him from clay.”
[38:77]
He said, “Then, get out from here, for you are accursed,
[38:78]
and on you shall remain My curse till the Day of Judgment.”
[38:79]
He said, “O my Lord, then give me respite till the day they are raised again.”
[38:80]
He said, “Then, you have been given respite,
[38:81]
until the Day of the Appointed Time.”
[38:82]
He said, “Then, I swear by Your Might, that I will definitely lead them astray, all of them -
[38:83]
except Your chosen servants among them.”
[38:84]
He (Allah) said, “Then, the truth is-and it is (always) the truth that I speak-
[38:85]
that I will definitely fill the Jahannam with you and with those who will follow you from among them, all together.”
Could you share the verses from the Bible regarding the enmity between us and Satan? Thanks.
He (Allah) said, “Go then, for whoever of them follows you, the Hell shall be the recompense of you all, a full recompense.
[17:64]
Entice with your voice those of them whom you can, and rally against them your horsemen and your footmen, and share with them in their wealth and their children, and make promises to them” - and Satan promises them nothing but delusion -
[17:65]
“As for My servants, you have no control over them, and your Lord is enough to look after (everything).”
[38:71]
When your Lord said to the angels, “I am going to create man from clay.
[38:72]
So, once I make him perfectly and breath My spirit into him, you must fall down in prostration before him.”
[38:73]
Then, the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together -
[38:74]
except Iblīs (Satan). He waxed proud, and became one of the disbelievers.
[38:75]
He (Allah) said, “O Iblīs, what did prevent you from prostrating yourself before what I created with My hands? Did you wax proud or were you among the lofty ones?”
[38:76]
He said, “I am better than him. You created me from fire, and created him from clay.”
[38:77]
He said, “Then, get out from here, for you are accursed,
[38:78]
and on you shall remain My curse till the Day of Judgment.”
[38:79]
He said, “O my Lord, then give me respite till the day they are raised again.”
[38:80]
He said, “Then, you have been given respite,
[38:81]
until the Day of the Appointed Time.”
[38:82]
He said, “Then, I swear by Your Might, that I will definitely lead them astray, all of them -
[38:83]
except Your chosen servants among them.”
[38:84]
He (Allah) said, “Then, the truth is-and it is (always) the truth that I speak-
[38:85]
that I will definitely fill the Jahannam with you and with those who will follow you from among them, all together.”
Could you share the verses from the Bible regarding the enmity between us and Satan? Thanks.
