Len: "Catholics and Protestants do not 'share a God'. (Not your first error on this blog.)"
So say you.
So say you.
britologywatch said...@ Gnostic, your whole approach to the argument appears to be that 'anything Wilders does, his enemies do worse', so that justifies him in his prejudice.
'Islamophobia', in my book, means 'irrational fear and loathing of Islam'; so I think that's a pretty accurate description for Wilders.
Do I think he should have been put on trial? Well, that's a matter for the technicalities of Dutch law and how they define 'hate speech'. But politically speaking, it was a pretty dumb thing to do, as it does give Wilders a perfect platform, and support for his party has gone up as a consequence of it. So yes, it's perfect publicity.
In terms of peace making, I was thinking of this in the broader sense it has in the Gospels (and don't come back to me and trash this just because you think Christianity is hogwash - that's just lazy thinking). Is Wilders someone who seeks to promote the cause of greater understanding and co-existence between Western societies and Islam, or the opposite: their total separation and mutual mistrust? Surely, the answer is the latter. And this does not help create conditions for peace in all its senses.
It's unfortunate and unacceptable that Wilders' life is at risk for the stand he's taken, and his safety should be protected. As a matter of general principle, I support his right to say what he has even if he's wrong. And there is a problem with limited sections of the Muslim population reacting to any criticism of aspects of their faith that they regard as sacred with rage and violence. So that has to be opposed as well.
So there are elements of truth and justice in Wilders' stand - it's just that his position is compromised by his opposition to any form of peaceful co-existence with Islam.
'Islamophobia', in my book, means 'irrational fear and loathing of Islam'; so I think that's a pretty accurate description for Wilders.
Do I think he should have been put on trial? Well, that's a matter for the technicalities of Dutch law and how they define 'hate speech'. But politically speaking, it was a pretty dumb thing to do, as it does give Wilders a perfect platform, and support for his party has gone up as a consequence of it. So yes, it's perfect publicity.
In terms of peace making, I was thinking of this in the broader sense it has in the Gospels (and don't come back to me and trash this just because you think Christianity is hogwash - that's just lazy thinking). Is Wilders someone who seeks to promote the cause of greater understanding and co-existence between Western societies and Islam, or the opposite: their total separation and mutual mistrust? Surely, the answer is the latter. And this does not help create conditions for peace in all its senses.
It's unfortunate and unacceptable that Wilders' life is at risk for the stand he's taken, and his safety should be protected. As a matter of general principle, I support his right to say what he has even if he's wrong. And there is a problem with limited sections of the Muslim population reacting to any criticism of aspects of their faith that they regard as sacred with rage and violence. So that has to be opposed as well.
So there are elements of truth and justice in Wilders' stand - it's just that his position is compromised by his opposition to any form of peaceful co-existence with Islam.
srizals said...Did I Kiwi? Maybe you should find your way back by reading backwards. Jack has eyes to see hasn't he? He can read for himself.
Len, what taqiyya are you talking about? The truth is not a deception, Len. I have presented the facts against the lies believed to be the truth by so many. I'm still waiting for any comments worth of reading from Jack and Kiwi. They have only been questioning without any answer in return. I wonder why.
Len, what taqiyya are you talking about? The truth is not a deception, Len. I have presented the facts against the lies believed to be the truth by so many. I'm still waiting for any comments worth of reading from Jack and Kiwi. They have only been questioning without any answer in return. I wonder why.
srizals said...Jack Flash,
Now looking at biblical proof that the lands of Palestine belongs not to the Jews.
First of all, the Israelites were slaves brought into the lands of the Philistine by Moses a.s. He was neither an evil man nor a sick murderer. He was one of the holy prophets of the God, the One God. All the prophets of God are not evil and sick minded persons that love mind-killing booze and easily tempted by lust. They are the holy messengers of God and thus to believe them as common as any common man that easily sin and error would be absolutely illogical. In the Koran, they are portrayed as they actually are, in others, ask not of me.
Second, the Israelites lost this gift of the land to be shared with the Philistines when they had repeatedly disobeyed the One and Only that had saved them from the Pharaoh of Egypt. And thus they were banished and defeated, enslaved for hundreds of years, by the Persians, Assyrians and Romans.
Third, the lands of Philistine were given back to the ones that would obey and uphold the sacred laws of the God. Nowadays, pimps reign in the so-called 'Holy lands'. And it's not the fault of the Muslims and Christians there.
Fourth, the ten commandments were broken, almost all of them by the Israelites then/Jews nowadays. So how does the promise of God to them can still stand?
Most of these commandments have been broken by them, in the past and still, even now,
Thou shalt not kill. (Killing is common beginning 1940s)
Thou shalt not commit adultery. (Need I give the statistics/proof?)
Thou shalt not steal. (Palestinians' Lands, possessions and etc.)
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. (Lying about lands possessions/ownerships)
Thou shalt not covet anything that is thy neighbour's. (Everything that their neighbours possessed has been taken away by them)
Jack?
Now looking at biblical proof that the lands of Palestine belongs not to the Jews.
First of all, the Israelites were slaves brought into the lands of the Philistine by Moses a.s. He was neither an evil man nor a sick murderer. He was one of the holy prophets of the God, the One God. All the prophets of God are not evil and sick minded persons that love mind-killing booze and easily tempted by lust. They are the holy messengers of God and thus to believe them as common as any common man that easily sin and error would be absolutely illogical. In the Koran, they are portrayed as they actually are, in others, ask not of me.
Second, the Israelites lost this gift of the land to be shared with the Philistines when they had repeatedly disobeyed the One and Only that had saved them from the Pharaoh of Egypt. And thus they were banished and defeated, enslaved for hundreds of years, by the Persians, Assyrians and Romans.
Third, the lands of Philistine were given back to the ones that would obey and uphold the sacred laws of the God. Nowadays, pimps reign in the so-called 'Holy lands'. And it's not the fault of the Muslims and Christians there.
Fourth, the ten commandments were broken, almost all of them by the Israelites then/Jews nowadays. So how does the promise of God to them can still stand?
Most of these commandments have been broken by them, in the past and still, even now,
Thou shalt not kill. (Killing is common beginning 1940s)
Thou shalt not commit adultery. (Need I give the statistics/proof?)
Thou shalt not steal. (Palestinians' Lands, possessions and etc.)
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. (Lying about lands possessions/ownerships)
Thou shalt not covet anything that is thy neighbour's. (Everything that their neighbours possessed has been taken away by them)
Jack?
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
Archbishop Cranmer said...No, Mr Srizals, we are not going back to your interminable and very lengthy quotations from the Qur'an. Please go and start your own blog if that is the extent of your argument.
srizals said...Well, now I'm feeling like Geert Wilders, except his wild behaviours is acceptable. Sorry your grace. It won't happen again. Promise.
Owl said...Dan,
To use your own words, bollox.
I am the terrible Owl which caught you with your pants down.
You now decry the Owl instead of pulling your pants up.
Your problem, stop crying.
To use your own words, bollox.
I am the terrible Owl which caught you with your pants down.
You now decry the Owl instead of pulling your pants up.
Your problem, stop crying.
DanJ0 said...Owl, lie away you moral pygmy. Both you and I know the truth of it.
Owl said...Dan,
Yes Dan, I know the truth and that is your problem.
I have no need to insult you about it even though you resort to insults quite regularly.
Quite frankly, I find you laughable and your puppet master even more so.
Good day, Sir.
Yes Dan, I know the truth and that is your problem.
I have no need to insult you about it even though you resort to insults quite regularly.
Quite frankly, I find you laughable and your puppet master even more so.
Good day, Sir.
William Wallace said..."Aye, fight and you may die. Run, and you'll live... at least a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willin' to trade ALL the days, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take... OUR FREEDOM!"
srizals said...William Wallace, are you referring to a dominating, ruthless Western power or Geert Wilders lookalikes now and then?
srizals said...Mr. Flash, God sent nations after nations to destroy/rule godless Israel in Palestine for ages, repeatedly.
722 BC, in the hands of the Assyrians, the Northern Kingdom of Israel was destroyed.
Isaiah 10
5 The Lord says:
I am furious! And I will use the king of Assyria [c] as a club 6to beat down you godless people. I am angry with you, and I will send him to attack you. He will take what he wants and walk on you like mud in the streets.
In 586 BC, the fall of Jerusalem,where the Southern kingdom, Judah, was destroyed in the hands of the Babylonians, who ruled/enslaved them for 70 years.
Jeremiah 25:9
9 behold, I will send for all the tribes of the north, declares the Lord, and for Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction, and make them a horror, a hissing, and an everlasting desolation.
Jeremiah 27:6
6 Now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, my servant, and I have given him also the beasts of the field to serve him.
Jeremiah 43:10
10 and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: Behold, I will send and take Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will set his throne above these stones that I have hidden, and he will spread his royal canopy over them.
538-332 BCE, In the hands of Persians,
333-63 BCE, In the hands of the Hellenistic,
63 BCE-313 CE,In the hands of the Romans,(who destroyed the second temple in 70 A.D.)
The Jews were banished for approximately 2,000 years or 20 times of our average lifetime if we consider a century as an average lifespan for a short lived man such as us. But I doubt most of us will get to live beyond 63.
313-636 In the hands of the Byzantine
636-1099 Arab
1099-1291 Crusaders (who banished them from Jerusalem under the pain of death.)
1291-1516 Mamluk
1516-1918 Ottoman
Finally, in 1917-1948 Mandate Period under The British.
And of course, the Israeli Period (1948-present)
And as a conclusions,
Romans 1
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
722 BC, in the hands of the Assyrians, the Northern Kingdom of Israel was destroyed.
Isaiah 10
5 The Lord says:
I am furious! And I will use the king of Assyria [c] as a club 6to beat down you godless people. I am angry with you, and I will send him to attack you. He will take what he wants and walk on you like mud in the streets.
In 586 BC, the fall of Jerusalem,where the Southern kingdom, Judah, was destroyed in the hands of the Babylonians, who ruled/enslaved them for 70 years.
Jeremiah 25:9
9 behold, I will send for all the tribes of the north, declares the Lord, and for Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction, and make them a horror, a hissing, and an everlasting desolation.
Jeremiah 27:6
6 Now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, my servant, and I have given him also the beasts of the field to serve him.
Jeremiah 43:10
10 and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: Behold, I will send and take Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will set his throne above these stones that I have hidden, and he will spread his royal canopy over them.
538-332 BCE, In the hands of Persians,
333-63 BCE, In the hands of the Hellenistic,
63 BCE-313 CE,In the hands of the Romans,(who destroyed the second temple in 70 A.D.)
The Jews were banished for approximately 2,000 years or 20 times of our average lifetime if we consider a century as an average lifespan for a short lived man such as us. But I doubt most of us will get to live beyond 63.
313-636 In the hands of the Byzantine
636-1099 Arab
1099-1291 Crusaders (who banished them from Jerusalem under the pain of death.)
1291-1516 Mamluk
1516-1918 Ottoman
Finally, in 1917-1948 Mandate Period under The British.
And of course, the Israeli Period (1948-present)
And as a conclusions,
Romans 1
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
len said...Srizels,
We have all got Bibles!
Keep reading and you will get to the good bit.
But show a bit of respect for His Grace`s blog and don`t put the whole of the old Testament on it, will you.?
Do you know Srizels, that Mohammed
'lifted ' parts of the Old Testament and incorporated it into the Koran?
Islam takes all the 'harsh dealing of God with his enemies 'and incorporates this into its philosophy/religion but omits the whole reason of the Old Testament which is the love of God and His plan of redemption through Jesus Christ.
This is like purchasing a wonderful gift keeping the wrapping and throwing away the contents!
We have all got Bibles!
Keep reading and you will get to the good bit.
But show a bit of respect for His Grace`s blog and don`t put the whole of the old Testament on it, will you.?
Do you know Srizels, that Mohammed
'lifted ' parts of the Old Testament and incorporated it into the Koran?
Islam takes all the 'harsh dealing of God with his enemies 'and incorporates this into its philosophy/religion but omits the whole reason of the Old Testament which is the love of God and His plan of redemption through Jesus Christ.
This is like purchasing a wonderful gift keeping the wrapping and throwing away the contents!
srizals said...Len,
Romans 1
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
Len, having the Bible, reading the Bible and understanding the Bible are all three different things. Look, read and ponder, - Romans 1:23. It's in your Bible.
Muhammad cannot read. So how?
Romans 1
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
Len, having the Bible, reading the Bible and understanding the Bible are all three different things. Look, read and ponder, - Romans 1:23. It's in your Bible.
Muhammad cannot read. So how?
srizals said...Dear Len, I am quoting from the New Testament. Wake up from your dream world. See the light.
len said...So Srizels, not quite sure I understand you
You believe the New Testament.?
You believe the New Testament.?
len said...Srizels,
If you have read the New Testament, and you say that you understand it ,you must have realised by now that Islam cannot possibly be true.
Time and time again, Muhammad testified to the integrity of the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians. He affirmed and confirmed them as the Word of God. Since Muslims believe the Quran to be the Word of God, then it is actually their God - "Allah" - testifying to the integrity and truthfulness of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures existing in Muhammad's lifetime.
I know some Muslims say the Bible was 'corrupted, but was this before or after Mohammed.
Think carefully before you answer!
If you have read the New Testament, and you say that you understand it ,you must have realised by now that Islam cannot possibly be true.
Time and time again, Muhammad testified to the integrity of the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians. He affirmed and confirmed them as the Word of God. Since Muslims believe the Quran to be the Word of God, then it is actually their God - "Allah" - testifying to the integrity and truthfulness of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures existing in Muhammad's lifetime.
I know some Muslims say the Bible was 'corrupted, but was this before or after Mohammed.
Think carefully before you answer!
srizals said...The question Len, is do you? If you do, then what is your opinion on Jesus, the saviour? Man made God or God made Man? Or neither? Regarding the quoted verse of the New Testament! The Old Testament in context that I have quoted cannot be helped since it is intertwined with current Israel and certain sects of Christianity.
srizals said...It was corrupted before, proof, only in one religion, the pious cannot decide what/who is their God. How can something so fundamental, so basic could have differ so much? Only in one religion, so many versions of the same holy book are available.
Len, the gospels are not the Injeel that was given to Jesus. They are collections of accounts by numerous biblical writers, many are anonymous. Remember Nicaea? However some remnants of it could have survive and cannot be denied, only God knows, but the gospel of Barnabas is the most true since it was written by a true eye-witness.
Have you read it Len? Len, if a pagan decide something about your faith, do you believe him wholeheartedly?
Len, the gospels are not the Injeel that was given to Jesus. They are collections of accounts by numerous biblical writers, many are anonymous. Remember Nicaea? However some remnants of it could have survive and cannot be denied, only God knows, but the gospel of Barnabas is the most true since it was written by a true eye-witness.
Have you read it Len? Len, if a pagan decide something about your faith, do you believe him wholeheartedly?
len said...Srizels,
If the Koran really is the accurate record of events communicated by Allah to Mohammed via the Angel Gabriel, surely this vital piece of information would have been communicated to Mohammed – i.e. somewhere in the Koran it would be written that the Jews and the Christians have a false record of events but this does not happen. In fact there is nothing in the Koran saying this but there are verses saying the opposite, speaking highly of the Bible and advising Muslims to learn from Jews and Christians:
‘And if thou (Mohammed) art in doubt concerning that which we reveal unto thee, then question those who read the scripture that was before thee’ (i.e. the Bible). Sura (chapter) 10.95. ‘O ye people of the book! Ye are not grounded on anything until ye observe the Taurat (Torah) and the Injil (Gospel) and that which has been revealed unto you from your Lord.’ Sura 5.68.
If the Koran really is the accurate record of events communicated by Allah to Mohammed via the Angel Gabriel, surely this vital piece of information would have been communicated to Mohammed – i.e. somewhere in the Koran it would be written that the Jews and the Christians have a false record of events but this does not happen. In fact there is nothing in the Koran saying this but there are verses saying the opposite, speaking highly of the Bible and advising Muslims to learn from Jews and Christians:
‘And if thou (Mohammed) art in doubt concerning that which we reveal unto thee, then question those who read the scripture that was before thee’ (i.e. the Bible). Sura (chapter) 10.95. ‘O ye people of the book! Ye are not grounded on anything until ye observe the Taurat (Torah) and the Injil (Gospel) and that which has been revealed unto you from your Lord.’ Sura 5.68.
len said...Srizels,
Authenticity of the bible and the Historical record.
There are around 5,300 manuscripts of the whole or part of the Greek text of the New Testament pre-dating Mohammed still in existence, including the Codex Vaticanus (325-350 AD) located in the Vatican library and the Codex Siniaticus (350 AD) located in the British Museum. There are also quotations in the works of early Christian writers which are ‘so extensive that the New Testament could virtually be reconstructed from them without the New Testament documents’ (Josh McDowell ‘Evidence that demands a Verdict’). The Dead Sea Scrolls dated around 125 BC have bought to light manuscripts of the Old Testament books including the complete text of Isaiah. The Septuagint translation of the Hebrew text into Greek in around 165 BC also confirms the fact that there has been no change to the text of the Old Testament since that time.
Authenticity of the bible and the Historical record.
There are around 5,300 manuscripts of the whole or part of the Greek text of the New Testament pre-dating Mohammed still in existence, including the Codex Vaticanus (325-350 AD) located in the Vatican library and the Codex Siniaticus (350 AD) located in the British Museum. There are also quotations in the works of early Christian writers which are ‘so extensive that the New Testament could virtually be reconstructed from them without the New Testament documents’ (Josh McDowell ‘Evidence that demands a Verdict’). The Dead Sea Scrolls dated around 125 BC have bought to light manuscripts of the Old Testament books including the complete text of Isaiah. The Septuagint translation of the Hebrew text into Greek in around 165 BC also confirms the fact that there has been no change to the text of the Old Testament since that time.
Jack Flash said...Srizals.
Many times God used foreign nations to discipline Israel for following pagan gods. They were warned by the prophets beforehand but also promised that they would be bought back to the land God had promised them. This has proved true throughout history, including 1948. This is why Israel occupies its country today.
As you well know the 'palestine' title was coined by the Romans to mock the Jews and did not exist before the destruction of Jerusalem circa 60 a.d. the title being a corruption of phillistine.
Could you also please attempt to explain why the so called 'gospel' of Barnabas being, as you believe a contemporary work from the time of Jesus, has many errors that a student of history could point out as inconsistent with its claims of authenticity. Being dated by scholars as several hundred years later than first thought.
Should as a forgery take precedence over the proven canon of scripture that you scorn in such a cavalier and feckless fashion to your own detriment on the day of judgement.
Could it be that it was in fact written in Spain during the era of the Islamic invasion of that country. Oh sorry Islam does not do that sort of thing do they?
according to you only Israel takes over other peoples countries.
Jack.
Many times God used foreign nations to discipline Israel for following pagan gods. They were warned by the prophets beforehand but also promised that they would be bought back to the land God had promised them. This has proved true throughout history, including 1948. This is why Israel occupies its country today.
As you well know the 'palestine' title was coined by the Romans to mock the Jews and did not exist before the destruction of Jerusalem circa 60 a.d. the title being a corruption of phillistine.
Could you also please attempt to explain why the so called 'gospel' of Barnabas being, as you believe a contemporary work from the time of Jesus, has many errors that a student of history could point out as inconsistent with its claims of authenticity. Being dated by scholars as several hundred years later than first thought.
Should as a forgery take precedence over the proven canon of scripture that you scorn in such a cavalier and feckless fashion to your own detriment on the day of judgement.
Could it be that it was in fact written in Spain during the era of the Islamic invasion of that country. Oh sorry Islam does not do that sort of thing do they?
according to you only Israel takes over other peoples countries.
Jack.
srizals said...Jack, where's the proof that the Muslims had treated the Spanish as the Jews treat the Palestinians nowadays?
Where's the proof of the said historical error in the Gospel of Barnabas? How many?
You said the Romans, for mockery sake, called the land and the people there as Palestine/Palestinians. How did you come to this conclusion? Give me another example on how a place/race can be mistakenly identified by others and accepted it with pride.
Where's the proof that the Romans did that based on mockery? Or were they that stupid?
If the Gospel of Barnabas is full of error, how about the other gospels?
Don't you find it odd that God punished them repeatedly when some claimed that they are special? Were they allowed to return by God?
And you have not answered my questions, Jack.
Len, in what year did Jesus was said to be crucified and suffered such a horrible and humiliating death and what happened to his disciples afterwards?
Len, who was Jesus? The son of man or the son of god? According to the gospels of course. I really hope you have the Gospel of Barnabas for comparison/argument sake, if not, it would be pointless to have a discussion on something that we both can't refer to.
As for the verses of the Koran, I have promised not to use them in here. Let's focus on the Bible itself shall we? But could it be possible if I give the number of the verses, your grace?
Where's the proof of the said historical error in the Gospel of Barnabas? How many?
You said the Romans, for mockery sake, called the land and the people there as Palestine/Palestinians. How did you come to this conclusion? Give me another example on how a place/race can be mistakenly identified by others and accepted it with pride.
Where's the proof that the Romans did that based on mockery? Or were they that stupid?
If the Gospel of Barnabas is full of error, how about the other gospels?
Don't you find it odd that God punished them repeatedly when some claimed that they are special? Were they allowed to return by God?
And you have not answered my questions, Jack.
Len, in what year did Jesus was said to be crucified and suffered such a horrible and humiliating death and what happened to his disciples afterwards?
Len, who was Jesus? The son of man or the son of god? According to the gospels of course. I really hope you have the Gospel of Barnabas for comparison/argument sake, if not, it would be pointless to have a discussion on something that we both can't refer to.
As for the verses of the Koran, I have promised not to use them in here. Let's focus on the Bible itself shall we? But could it be possible if I give the number of the verses, your grace?
len said...Srizels,
'Jesus Son of Man ,or Son of God?'
I believe you are trying to lure me into one of your little 'traps' here.
I think you have been trolling through the 'disprove Christianity' websites.
Now that`s hardly having an open mind is it.?
Well;
Jesus has two complete natures—one fully human and one fully divine. The doctrine of the hypostatic union teaches is that these two natures are united in one person in the God-man. Jesus is not two persons. He is one person. The hypostatic union is the joining of the divine and the human in the one person of Jesus.
Therefore Jesus is the perfect, and the only, mediator between God and humanity.
'Jesus Son of Man ,or Son of God?'
I believe you are trying to lure me into one of your little 'traps' here.
I think you have been trolling through the 'disprove Christianity' websites.
Now that`s hardly having an open mind is it.?
Well;
Jesus has two complete natures—one fully human and one fully divine. The doctrine of the hypostatic union teaches is that these two natures are united in one person in the God-man. Jesus is not two persons. He is one person. The hypostatic union is the joining of the divine and the human in the one person of Jesus.
Therefore Jesus is the perfect, and the only, mediator between God and humanity.
srizals said...A very short one, if I may,
[2:79]
So, woe to those who write the Book with their hands and then say, “This is from Allah”, so that they may gain thereby a trifling price. Then, woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they earn.
[2:79]
So, woe to those who write the Book with their hands and then say, “This is from Allah”, so that they may gain thereby a trifling price. Then, woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they earn.
len said...Srizels,
not quite sure where you are going with this?
not quite sure where you are going with this?
srizals said...Len, you said you follow your scripture, in Romans 1, it clearly stated that God is not of this earth, so how? How could you say you're following your scripture when you said Jesus, a mortal man was god?
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
Now do you understand the sura you've quoted? I'm repeating Len, your grace,
‘O ye people of the book! Ye are not grounded on anything until ye observe the Taurat (Torah) and the Injil (Gospel) and that which has been revealed unto you from your Lord.’ Sura 5.68.
Who translated your Koran, Len?
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
Now do you understand the sura you've quoted? I'm repeating Len, your grace,
‘O ye people of the book! Ye are not grounded on anything until ye observe the Taurat (Torah) and the Injil (Gospel) and that which has been revealed unto you from your Lord.’ Sura 5.68.
Who translated your Koran, Len?
srizals said...Len @ 17.13, because you've said @ 13.00 - " i.e. somewhere in the Koran it would be written that the Jews and the Christians have a false record of events but this does not happen. In fact there is nothing in the Koran saying this but there are verses saying the opposite,"
I'm giving one to you @ 17.10
I'm giving one to you @ 17.10
len said...Srizels,
Well you lost me there.
With the greatest respect, where does it say in the Koran that the Christians and the Jews 'changed the books.'
(Which is what we were discussing)
This is surely too important a subject for Mohammed(or whoever wrote the Koran) not to mention specifically.
Well you lost me there.
With the greatest respect, where does it say in the Koran that the Christians and the Jews 'changed the books.'
(Which is what we were discussing)
This is surely too important a subject for Mohammed(or whoever wrote the Koran) not to mention specifically.
len said...Srizels,
One other point,
I believe you have your own Blog.And you 'trawl the net'particularly religious sites and 'lift articles('very selectively) to post on your own Blog.
I hope you(in a sense of fairness) post all my questions and answers and not just those which suit your purposes.
One other point,
I believe you have your own Blog.And you 'trawl the net'particularly religious sites and 'lift articles('very selectively) to post on your own Blog.
I hope you(in a sense of fairness) post all my questions and answers and not just those which suit your purposes.
Gnostic said...Britologywatch – Wilders is as entitled to his opinion as are you or I. Unfortunately he does have a point. Radical Islam is a problem. Please note that I say radical Islam and by radical I mean the people who preach hate and death and strap bombs to themselves. It is not irrational to be ‘phobic’ about such people because we have seen what they do.
You are correct about the dumbness of putting Wilders on trial because all the Dutch court has done is to spread the message they want to silence. If they hadn’t put him on trial what are the odds that neither your nor I would even know his name or what he has to say? The publicity he’s received is down to the Dutch authorities falling over themselves to try and shut him up in order to appease a certain demographic. Smooth move!
It might surprise you to know that I value my Christian upbringing. Our most basic laws are based on Christian ethics and they provide a decent code to abide by. If I ever had to choose sides I would return to my roots even though I would never return to the church because the hypocrisy I discovered was sickening. I am an agnostic because I don’t agree with organised religion or the dogmatic control it exerts or at least attmepts to. I am not an atheist because I have no idea whether or not there is a creator (it’s hard to believe there is no force of creation) but if there was an ultimate entity, I find it hard to believe he, she or it chose us especially out of the entire infinite universe and went around smiting left, right and centre for the most ridiculous and selfish of reasons.
As for the Gospels, they are nice stories. If people want to believe them I don’t have a problem. Faith in the Bible comforts many people. I put my faith in other things.
As for Islam itself, we’ll find out soon enough but you have to remember the militant faction has been at war with us since the days of Mohammed. Any religion that reacts so extremely to the slightest insult is not conducive to a peaceful co-existence and their treatment of women, in far too many instances, is deplorable. Many Muslims are not so different to us. I’ve actually lived in Libya, pre-Gadaffi, and my brother was born in Benghazi. The ordinary people were polite and very hospitable. I have no bone of contention with them. None whatsoever. Nor with Muslims who either accept our ways or find ways to work with us rather than against us.
I do, however, take exception to the elements who seek to transform us, to destroy our way of life and supplant their own rules at whatever the cost. They are a threat to peace and we should not appease them within our own shores.
It seems that we are not so different after all, you and I. :0)
You are correct about the dumbness of putting Wilders on trial because all the Dutch court has done is to spread the message they want to silence. If they hadn’t put him on trial what are the odds that neither your nor I would even know his name or what he has to say? The publicity he’s received is down to the Dutch authorities falling over themselves to try and shut him up in order to appease a certain demographic. Smooth move!
It might surprise you to know that I value my Christian upbringing. Our most basic laws are based on Christian ethics and they provide a decent code to abide by. If I ever had to choose sides I would return to my roots even though I would never return to the church because the hypocrisy I discovered was sickening. I am an agnostic because I don’t agree with organised religion or the dogmatic control it exerts or at least attmepts to. I am not an atheist because I have no idea whether or not there is a creator (it’s hard to believe there is no force of creation) but if there was an ultimate entity, I find it hard to believe he, she or it chose us especially out of the entire infinite universe and went around smiting left, right and centre for the most ridiculous and selfish of reasons.
As for the Gospels, they are nice stories. If people want to believe them I don’t have a problem. Faith in the Bible comforts many people. I put my faith in other things.
As for Islam itself, we’ll find out soon enough but you have to remember the militant faction has been at war with us since the days of Mohammed. Any religion that reacts so extremely to the slightest insult is not conducive to a peaceful co-existence and their treatment of women, in far too many instances, is deplorable. Many Muslims are not so different to us. I’ve actually lived in Libya, pre-Gadaffi, and my brother was born in Benghazi. The ordinary people were polite and very hospitable. I have no bone of contention with them. None whatsoever. Nor with Muslims who either accept our ways or find ways to work with us rather than against us.
I do, however, take exception to the elements who seek to transform us, to destroy our way of life and supplant their own rules at whatever the cost. They are a threat to peace and we should not appease them within our own shores.
It seems that we are not so different after all, you and I. :0)
srizals said...Sorry Len, if the first verse doesn't fit your request, how about these,
[3:78]
Among them there is indeed a group who twist their tongues while (reading) the Book, so that you may deem it to be from the Book, while it is not from the Book. They say, “It is from Allah”, while it is not from Allah; and they tell lies about Allah knowingly.
[3:187]
When Allah took a pledge from those who were given the Book: “You shall make it known to people, and you shall not conceal it,” they threw it away behind their backs, and acquired a small price for it. So, evil is what they acquire.
[5:13]
So, because they broke their pledge, We cursed them and made their hearts hardened. They change words from their places, and they have overlooked a good deal of the Advice they were given. Every now and then you come across a certain treachery from all of them, except a few. So, forgive them and forego. Indeed, Allah loves those who are good in deeds.
Len, you have to refer your Koran in order to understand the context of these verses. I do not want to offend his grace.
Sorry for the late reply, have to fetch my parents from the holy land.
Whatever happened to Jack? Anyone knows?
[3:78]
Among them there is indeed a group who twist their tongues while (reading) the Book, so that you may deem it to be from the Book, while it is not from the Book. They say, “It is from Allah”, while it is not from Allah; and they tell lies about Allah knowingly.
[3:187]
When Allah took a pledge from those who were given the Book: “You shall make it known to people, and you shall not conceal it,” they threw it away behind their backs, and acquired a small price for it. So, evil is what they acquire.
[5:13]
So, because they broke their pledge, We cursed them and made their hearts hardened. They change words from their places, and they have overlooked a good deal of the Advice they were given. Every now and then you come across a certain treachery from all of them, except a few. So, forgive them and forego. Indeed, Allah loves those who are good in deeds.
Len, you have to refer your Koran in order to understand the context of these verses. I do not want to offend his grace.
Sorry for the late reply, have to fetch my parents from the holy land.
Whatever happened to Jack? Anyone knows?
srizals said...The gospels that you have Len were written by Jews or Jewish descendants in the era after Jesus. Am I right? Who translated them to their first copy in Greek/Latin/English? About our discussions, don't worry. I do not manipulate them. They are available freely for everyone to read and ponder. I keep them especially for my own personal collection. I'm not deleting/manipulating anything on purpose. If I have forgotten to put your thoughts/answers, let me know so that I can recheck his grace blog. Hope they are still available.
srizals said...Gnostic, Europe were brought to its knees by Europeans themselves, mostly Christians and Atheists themselves. In the hands of Muslims, even in times of war, some part of Europe thrived with Christians and Jews. Google up Andalusia and the findings of Avicenna. You'll be surprised. Others would experienced plague after plague. As for the current situation we're having, ask your leaders what and why are your soldiers fighting in foreign lands that have not attack your peaceful homeland. Maybe you should be answering on their part? Maybe then we'll understand what are we really afraid of.
srizals said...How about this one, Len?
[6:91]
They did not hold Allah in due esteem when they said, “Allah has not sent down anything to a human being.” Say, “Who has sent down the Book brought by Mūsā as a light and a guidance for people, which you keep in various sheets (some of which) you disclose, and a lot of which you conceal, and (by which) you were taught what you did not know, neither you nor your fathers?” Say, “Allah.” Then leave them to play with whatever they indulge in.
[6:91]
They did not hold Allah in due esteem when they said, “Allah has not sent down anything to a human being.” Say, “Who has sent down the Book brought by Mūsā as a light and a guidance for people, which you keep in various sheets (some of which) you disclose, and a lot of which you conceal, and (by which) you were taught what you did not know, neither you nor your fathers?” Say, “Allah.” Then leave them to play with whatever they indulge in.
srizals said...Jack, something that you have forgotten along history
"the Turkish Straits was put under the control of the League of Nations at a time when it was dominated by Britain and France. the land held by Turkey in Arabia was made into a mandate - the land was ruled by the British and French until the people of the areas were ready to govern themselves"
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/treaty_of_versailles.htm
The people of the areas were not ready in time. They were replaced by outsiders.
Kiwi, are you still here?
"the Turkish Straits was put under the control of the League of Nations at a time when it was dominated by Britain and France. the land held by Turkey in Arabia was made into a mandate - the land was ruled by the British and French until the people of the areas were ready to govern themselves"
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/treaty_of_versailles.htm
The people of the areas were not ready in time. They were replaced by outsiders.
Kiwi, are you still here?
srizals said...Something for you Kiwi, from a Jew. Will you understand now?
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/arab-parents-must-stop-teaching-hate-to-their-children/
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/arab-parents-must-stop-teaching-hate-to-their-children/
len said...Srizels,I am afraid quoting the Koran to me is pointless.
It means nothing to me, the sentences are disjointed and without any apparent meaning.
I am truly impressed that you can get anything out of it at all.
It means nothing to me, the sentences are disjointed and without any apparent meaning.
I am truly impressed that you can get anything out of it at all.
srizals said...A glance of the gospel of Barnabas,
3. The disciples answered, "O Master, who shall that man be of whom you speak, who shall come into the world?" Jesus answered with joy of heart: 'He is Muhammad;, Messenger of God, and when he comes into the world, even as the rain makes the earth to bear fruit when for a long time it has not rained, even so shall he be occasion of good works among men, through the abundant mercy which he shall bring. For he is a white cloud full of the mercy of God, which mercy God shall sprinkle upon the faithful like rain.'
http://www.latrobe.edu.au/arts/barnabas/Barncoloured7.html
3. The disciples answered, "O Master, who shall that man be of whom you speak, who shall come into the world?" Jesus answered with joy of heart: 'He is Muhammad;, Messenger of God, and when he comes into the world, even as the rain makes the earth to bear fruit when for a long time it has not rained, even so shall he be occasion of good works among men, through the abundant mercy which he shall bring. For he is a white cloud full of the mercy of God, which mercy God shall sprinkle upon the faithful like rain.'
http://www.latrobe.edu.au/arts/barnabas/Barncoloured7.html
srizals said...Ok Len, it is you yourself that has asked which part of the Koran that tells about the corruption of the scriptures of the people of the Book and I think I've attempted to answer your question. Now, why not comment on Romans 1 that I've quoted? Are you going to let it be, again?
To save your time from scrolling up and lengthy quotation,
Romans 1
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
My question after all the lengthy answer is, why do you consider an image made to look like a mortal human being as the same with the glory of the immortal God? It's in the Bible. Not Koran. I've given so much but only ask a little in return. Grant me this right.
Who wrote the Bible by Friedman, Richard in PDF is available at 4shared.com for download. Better read it up. Before it disappears.
http://www.4shared.com/document/CMd5aCj6/Friedman_Richard_-_Who_Wrote_t.html
If you refuse, I have to ask the atheists, Buddhists and Hindus the same exact question. Why do they take humans as gods? Atheists would have done unimaginable sick things in order to please their human gods. Japanese Unit 731, the rape of Nangking, Khmer rouge's S21, the killing fields,the Gulags, hell on earth, Mao and Stalin and their revolutions and et cetera, and yet people still worship them and justify their monstrous brutalities. Do you know why, Len?
That would leave the likes of Gnostic free from any bloody hands of the past. Millions of non-combatants and the innocents have not perished in their inhumane hands. Take your time Len, Kiwi and Jack. Just don't take forever.
To save your time from scrolling up and lengthy quotation,
Romans 1
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
My question after all the lengthy answer is, why do you consider an image made to look like a mortal human being as the same with the glory of the immortal God? It's in the Bible. Not Koran. I've given so much but only ask a little in return. Grant me this right.
Who wrote the Bible by Friedman, Richard in PDF is available at 4shared.com for download. Better read it up. Before it disappears.
http://www.4shared.com/document/CMd5aCj6/Friedman_Richard_-_Who_Wrote_t.html
If you refuse, I have to ask the atheists, Buddhists and Hindus the same exact question. Why do they take humans as gods? Atheists would have done unimaginable sick things in order to please their human gods. Japanese Unit 731, the rape of Nangking, Khmer rouge's S21, the killing fields,the Gulags, hell on earth, Mao and Stalin and their revolutions and et cetera, and yet people still worship them and justify their monstrous brutalities. Do you know why, Len?
That would leave the likes of Gnostic free from any bloody hands of the past. Millions of non-combatants and the innocents have not perished in their inhumane hands. Take your time Len, Kiwi and Jack. Just don't take forever.
srizals said...Maybe this is the historical error meant by Jack.
201. 1. Jesus having entered into the Temple, the scribes and Pharisees brought to him a woman taken in adultery. They said among themselves: 'If he save her, it is contrary to the Law of Moses, and so we have him as guilty, and if he condemn her it is contrary to his own doctrine, for he preaches mercy.' Wherefore they came to Jesus and said: 'Master, we have found this woman in adultery. Moses commanded that [such] should be stoned: what then say you?'
2. Thereupon Jesus stooped down and with his finger made a mirror on the ground wherein every one saw his own iniquities. They still pressed for the answer, Jesus lifted up himself As and, pointing to the mirror with his finger, said: 'He that is without sin among you, let him be first to stone her.' And again he stooped down, shaping the mirror.
3. The men, seeing this, went out one by one, beginning from the eldest, for they were ashamed to see their abominations. Jesus having lifted up himself, and seeing no one but the woman, said: 'Woman, where are they that condemned you?' The woman answered, weeping: 'Lord, they are departed; and if you will pardon me as God lives, I will sin no more.'
4. Then Jesus said: 'Blessed be God! Go your way in peace and sin no more, for God has not sent me to condemn you.'
http://www.latrobe.edu.au/arts/barnabas/Barncoloured9.html
Jack?
201. 1. Jesus having entered into the Temple, the scribes and Pharisees brought to him a woman taken in adultery. They said among themselves: 'If he save her, it is contrary to the Law of Moses, and so we have him as guilty, and if he condemn her it is contrary to his own doctrine, for he preaches mercy.' Wherefore they came to Jesus and said: 'Master, we have found this woman in adultery. Moses commanded that [such] should be stoned: what then say you?'
2. Thereupon Jesus stooped down and with his finger made a mirror on the ground wherein every one saw his own iniquities. They still pressed for the answer, Jesus lifted up himself As and, pointing to the mirror with his finger, said: 'He that is without sin among you, let him be first to stone her.' And again he stooped down, shaping the mirror.
3. The men, seeing this, went out one by one, beginning from the eldest, for they were ashamed to see their abominations. Jesus having lifted up himself, and seeing no one but the woman, said: 'Woman, where are they that condemned you?' The woman answered, weeping: 'Lord, they are departed; and if you will pardon me as God lives, I will sin no more.'
4. Then Jesus said: 'Blessed be God! Go your way in peace and sin no more, for God has not sent me to condemn you.'
http://www.latrobe.edu.au/arts/barnabas/Barncoloured9.html
Jack?
len said...Srizels,
Every time I answer your question (which you refuse to accept)you come out with volumes of meaningless verses from the Koran.
Read this, come back to me and we will continue the discussion.
prophetofdoom.net
Every time I answer your question (which you refuse to accept)you come out with volumes of meaningless verses from the Koran.
Read this, come back to me and we will continue the discussion.
prophetofdoom.net
srizals said...Len,
you're giving an excuse, not an answer. First you ask which verse in the Koran tells about the people of the book and their scriptures, now, you're playing with words to confuse yourself or maybe other readers. What are you trying to proof?
You yourself quote the Koran, now you say its verses are difficult to comprehend?
Len, I have hundreds of links attacking Islam and Muslims alike. I have enough links refuting each one of them on my blog. Anyway, most would manipulate or delete me without defending their point of views. The link you've given me is not new to me.
Please answer my simple question, Len.
Why do you consider Jesus, a human and obviously a mortal as God when Romans 1:23 clearly warned of such abomination act? Non mouse could assist you if she wants to. She’s been to the Holy land. I wonder if she saw any brothels there. The Bible said there were brothels in the Holy land a long time ago, when the Israelites were about to invade Jericho, they sent spies to a brothel to gather intelligence. But I’m sure they were not there under Muslim rule. How about now? Non Mouse?
you're giving an excuse, not an answer. First you ask which verse in the Koran tells about the people of the book and their scriptures, now, you're playing with words to confuse yourself or maybe other readers. What are you trying to proof?
You yourself quote the Koran, now you say its verses are difficult to comprehend?
Len, I have hundreds of links attacking Islam and Muslims alike. I have enough links refuting each one of them on my blog. Anyway, most would manipulate or delete me without defending their point of views. The link you've given me is not new to me.
Please answer my simple question, Len.
Why do you consider Jesus, a human and obviously a mortal as God when Romans 1:23 clearly warned of such abomination act? Non mouse could assist you if she wants to. She’s been to the Holy land. I wonder if she saw any brothels there. The Bible said there were brothels in the Holy land a long time ago, when the Israelites were about to invade Jericho, they sent spies to a brothel to gather intelligence. But I’m sure they were not there under Muslim rule. How about now? Non Mouse?
len said...I Have answered your question before Srizels.
I think you are playing the same old game here.
1, Ask a question.
2, refuse any answer.
Somehow in your confused logic this makes you appear to win the argument?. and if you are uncertain about this throw in a lot of unrelated verses from the Koran?
I don`t think discovering the truth is an issue with you only proving yourself 'right'regardless of the facts.
We could continue going round in circles like a'dog chasing its tail'but that is rather fruitless.
I point you back to my original questions which you have avoided answering(with any sort of rational logic).
I think you are playing the same old game here.
1, Ask a question.
2, refuse any answer.
Somehow in your confused logic this makes you appear to win the argument?. and if you are uncertain about this throw in a lot of unrelated verses from the Koran?
I don`t think discovering the truth is an issue with you only proving yourself 'right'regardless of the facts.
We could continue going round in circles like a'dog chasing its tail'but that is rather fruitless.
I point you back to my original questions which you have avoided answering(with any sort of rational logic).
srizals said...It's not about winning, Len.
What would we get in winning an argument in the Internet? Fame? Money? Glamour?
It’s about the truth, half-truth and all lies.
Why are you playing games? Just a plain simple answer, Len.
I'll accept it and we can go on believing whatever we want to believe and bear the consequences, now and in the hereafter, especially in the hereafter. We all are going to die one day, right?
Maybe we shouldn't have forgotten to evolve and get to live forever. Aren't we in total control of ourselves?
What do you got to loose in answering me, regarding the verse in your own New Testament, Len?
Let's show to the world how different we can be and co-exist. It's the only answer for our survival in the future. Just don't kill each other and support each other oppressor, everything will be fine. Do it not, then, it is inevitable. There's an invisible line drawing certain boundaries in our world. If we dare to cross it, we must not be afraid to bear the consequences nor playing childish blaming game. It is so unbecoming.
What would we get in winning an argument in the Internet? Fame? Money? Glamour?
It’s about the truth, half-truth and all lies.
Why are you playing games? Just a plain simple answer, Len.
I'll accept it and we can go on believing whatever we want to believe and bear the consequences, now and in the hereafter, especially in the hereafter. We all are going to die one day, right?
Maybe we shouldn't have forgotten to evolve and get to live forever. Aren't we in total control of ourselves?
What do you got to loose in answering me, regarding the verse in your own New Testament, Len?
Let's show to the world how different we can be and co-exist. It's the only answer for our survival in the future. Just don't kill each other and support each other oppressor, everything will be fine. Do it not, then, it is inevitable. There's an invisible line drawing certain boundaries in our world. If we dare to cross it, we must not be afraid to bear the consequences nor playing childish blaming game. It is so unbecoming.
Jack Flash said...Srizals.
Same old drivel and rubbish.
Why do you insist on quoting from a proven counterfeit gospel (Barnabas) and insisting that it's the truth, then you rant on about the Blble being tampered with.
But then I guess you have been brainwashed from birth and accept all the lies you have been fed by those that indoctrinated, you to the point that you cannot even choose your faith without fear of being murdered by your fellow believers. Sad!. Oh by the way the so called 'gospel' of Barnabas refers to Barrels of wine. Wrong, Wine was stored in SKINS at the time that your so called 'gospel' was written.
If you like fairy stories, try the 'gospel' of Peter, (not to be confused with the epistles of Peter). there are many others false gospels that will keep you occupied for ages.
I trust that this will suffice to sink your errors, but I won't bank on it. Good luck buddy.
Your friend.
Jack.
Same old drivel and rubbish.
Why do you insist on quoting from a proven counterfeit gospel (Barnabas) and insisting that it's the truth, then you rant on about the Blble being tampered with.
But then I guess you have been brainwashed from birth and accept all the lies you have been fed by those that indoctrinated, you to the point that you cannot even choose your faith without fear of being murdered by your fellow believers. Sad!. Oh by the way the so called 'gospel' of Barnabas refers to Barrels of wine. Wrong, Wine was stored in SKINS at the time that your so called 'gospel' was written.
If you like fairy stories, try the 'gospel' of Peter, (not to be confused with the epistles of Peter). there are many others false gospels that will keep you occupied for ages.
I trust that this will suffice to sink your errors, but I won't bank on it. Good luck buddy.
Your friend.
Jack.
srizals said...Then it comes down to the wine as a barometer of the truth, doesn't it, Jack?
Jack, you are talking about yourself. I am as free as a bird. I don't need to expose my body so that my worth won't be taken for granted, nor trying to justify my sexual indulgence to the society and especially to my own children nor attach my dignity to materialism so that I'm somebody in the eyes of the beholder. Trust me. I am freer than you think.
Why should I take created things, most are my equals, some are above than me in certain aspects, a lot more are lower as my god or gods?
Why should I worship something or someone that has not been able to prove their worthiness to be worshiped? What promises do they gave me? What kind of guidance from them that could save me in this journey of life? What is their promises to me after I die so that I can endure the pain of death with hope?
Maybe you should be answering on Len's behalf regarding the New Testament warning of worshiping creatures that are perishable and dependable on others.
Are you willing, Jack?
Unlike Len that gave a whole website to escape my arguments, I'll give you just two readable pages regarding our discussion, Jack.
http://www.islamicsearchcenter.com/archive/2010/06/reliability-of-the-gospel-of-barnabas/
http://www.islamicsearchcenter.com/archive/2010/05/dead-sea-scrolls-prove-islam/
Could you please share yours? I hope you won't go AWOL on me as Len and Kiwi did. Thank you for considering me as a friend. Let's finish this, shall we?
Jack, you are talking about yourself. I am as free as a bird. I don't need to expose my body so that my worth won't be taken for granted, nor trying to justify my sexual indulgence to the society and especially to my own children nor attach my dignity to materialism so that I'm somebody in the eyes of the beholder. Trust me. I am freer than you think.
Why should I take created things, most are my equals, some are above than me in certain aspects, a lot more are lower as my god or gods?
Why should I worship something or someone that has not been able to prove their worthiness to be worshiped? What promises do they gave me? What kind of guidance from them that could save me in this journey of life? What is their promises to me after I die so that I can endure the pain of death with hope?
Maybe you should be answering on Len's behalf regarding the New Testament warning of worshiping creatures that are perishable and dependable on others.
Are you willing, Jack?
Unlike Len that gave a whole website to escape my arguments, I'll give you just two readable pages regarding our discussion, Jack.
http://www.islamicsearchcenter.com/archive/2010/06/reliability-of-the-gospel-of-barnabas/
http://www.islamicsearchcenter.com/archive/2010/05/dead-sea-scrolls-prove-islam/
Could you please share yours? I hope you won't go AWOL on me as Len and Kiwi did. Thank you for considering me as a friend. Let's finish this, shall we?
srizals said..."Judas entered impetuously before all into the chamber whence Jesus had been taken up. And the disciples were sleeping. Whereupon the wonderful God acted wonderfully, insomuch that Judas was so changed in speech and in face to be like Jesus that we believed him to be Jesus. And he, having awakened us, was seeking where the Master was. Whereupon we marvelled, and answered: 'You, Lord, are our master; have you now forgotten us?'
And he, smiling, said: 'Now are you foolish, that know not me to be Judas Iscariot!' And as he was saying this the soldiery entered, and laid their hands upon Judas, because he was in every way like to Jesus. We having heard Judas' saying, and seeing the multitude of soldiers, fled as beside ourselves. And John, who was wrapped in a linen cloth, awoke and fled, and when a soldier seized him by the linen cloth he left the linen cloth and fled naked. For God heard the prayer of Jesus, and saved the eleven from evil."
http://www.barnabas.net/chapters/264-216-judas-transformed.html
Jack, can we know what happened to Jesus' companions in the New Testament?
And he, smiling, said: 'Now are you foolish, that know not me to be Judas Iscariot!' And as he was saying this the soldiery entered, and laid their hands upon Judas, because he was in every way like to Jesus. We having heard Judas' saying, and seeing the multitude of soldiers, fled as beside ourselves. And John, who was wrapped in a linen cloth, awoke and fled, and when a soldier seized him by the linen cloth he left the linen cloth and fled naked. For God heard the prayer of Jesus, and saved the eleven from evil."
http://www.barnabas.net/chapters/264-216-judas-transformed.html
Jack, can we know what happened to Jesus' companions in the New Testament?
srizals said...Can we know what happened when Jesus was said being caught by his enemies as in this gospel? Could you give me the verses of the NT?
"The soldiers took Judas ;and bound him, not without derision. For he truthfully denied that he was Jesus; and the soldiers, mocking him, said: 'Sir, fear not, for we are come to make you king of Israel, and we have bound you because we know that you do refuse the kingdom.' Judas answered: 'Now have you lost your senses! You are come to take Jesus of Nazareth;, with arms and lanterns as [against] a robber; and you have bound me that have guided you, to make me king!'
Then the soldiers lost their patience, and with blows and kicks they began to flout Judas, and they led him with fury into Jerusalem. John ;and Peter ;followed the soldiers afar off; and they affirmed to him who writes that they saw all the examination that was made of Judas by the high priest, and by the council of the Pharisees, who were assembled to put Jesus to death. Whereupon Judas spoke many words of madness, insomuch that every one was filled with laughter, believing that he was really Jesus, and that for fear of death he was feigning madness. Whereupon the scribes bound his eyes with a bandage, and mocking him said: 'Jesus, prophet of the Nazarenes ;(for so they called them who believed in Jesus), 'tell us, who was it that smote you?' And they buffeted him and spat in his face.
When it was morning there assembled the great council of scribes and elders of the people; and the high priest with the Pharisees sought false witness against Judas, believing him to be Jesus: and they found not that which they sought. And why say I that the chief priests believed Judas to be Jesus? No all the disciples, with him who writes, believed it; and more, the poor Virgin mother of Jesus, with his kinsfolk and friends, believed it, insomuch that the sorrow of every one was incredible.
As God lives, he who writes forgot all that Jesus had said: how that he should be taken up from the world, and that he should suffer in a third person, and that he should not die until near the end of the world. Wherefore he went with the mother of Jesus and with John to the cross. The high priest caused Judas ;to be brought before him bound, and asked him of his disciples and his doctrine. Whereupon Judas, as though beside himself, answered nothing to the point. The high priest then adjured him by the living God of Israel that he would tell him the truth.
Judas answered: 'I have told you that I am Judas Iscariot, who promised to give into your hands Jesus the Nazarene; and you, by what are I know not, are beside yourselves, for you will have it by every means that I am Jesus.' The high priest answered: 'O perverse seducer, you have deceived all Israel, beginning from Galilee ;even to Jerusalem here, with your doctrine and false miracles: and now think you to flee the merited punishment that befits you by feigning to be mad?"
"The soldiers took Judas ;and bound him, not without derision. For he truthfully denied that he was Jesus; and the soldiers, mocking him, said: 'Sir, fear not, for we are come to make you king of Israel, and we have bound you because we know that you do refuse the kingdom.' Judas answered: 'Now have you lost your senses! You are come to take Jesus of Nazareth;, with arms and lanterns as [against] a robber; and you have bound me that have guided you, to make me king!'
Then the soldiers lost their patience, and with blows and kicks they began to flout Judas, and they led him with fury into Jerusalem. John ;and Peter ;followed the soldiers afar off; and they affirmed to him who writes that they saw all the examination that was made of Judas by the high priest, and by the council of the Pharisees, who were assembled to put Jesus to death. Whereupon Judas spoke many words of madness, insomuch that every one was filled with laughter, believing that he was really Jesus, and that for fear of death he was feigning madness. Whereupon the scribes bound his eyes with a bandage, and mocking him said: 'Jesus, prophet of the Nazarenes ;(for so they called them who believed in Jesus), 'tell us, who was it that smote you?' And they buffeted him and spat in his face.
When it was morning there assembled the great council of scribes and elders of the people; and the high priest with the Pharisees sought false witness against Judas, believing him to be Jesus: and they found not that which they sought. And why say I that the chief priests believed Judas to be Jesus? No all the disciples, with him who writes, believed it; and more, the poor Virgin mother of Jesus, with his kinsfolk and friends, believed it, insomuch that the sorrow of every one was incredible.
As God lives, he who writes forgot all that Jesus had said: how that he should be taken up from the world, and that he should suffer in a third person, and that he should not die until near the end of the world. Wherefore he went with the mother of Jesus and with John to the cross. The high priest caused Judas ;to be brought before him bound, and asked him of his disciples and his doctrine. Whereupon Judas, as though beside himself, answered nothing to the point. The high priest then adjured him by the living God of Israel that he would tell him the truth.
Judas answered: 'I have told you that I am Judas Iscariot, who promised to give into your hands Jesus the Nazarene; and you, by what are I know not, are beside yourselves, for you will have it by every means that I am Jesus.' The high priest answered: 'O perverse seducer, you have deceived all Israel, beginning from Galilee ;even to Jerusalem here, with your doctrine and false miracles: and now think you to flee the merited punishment that befits you by feigning to be mad?"
srizals said..."The third day Jesus said: "Go to the Mount of Olives with my mother, for there I will ascend again to heaven, and you will see who shall bear me up." So they all went there except twenty-five of the seventy-two disciples, who for fear had fled to Damascus. And as they all stood in prayer, at midday Jesus came with a great multitude of angels who were praising God: and the splendour of his face made them greatly afraid and they fell with their faces to the ground. But Jesus lifted them up, comforting them, and saying: "Do not be afraid, I am your master."
And he reproved many who believed that he had died and risen again, saying: "Do you hold me and God for liars? I said to you that God has granted to me to live almost to the end of the world. Truly I say to you, I did not die; it was Judas the traitor. Beware, for Satan will make every effort to deceive you. Be my witnesses in Israel, and throughout the world, of all things that you have heard and seen."
And having said this, he prayed God for the salvation of the faithful, and the conversion of sinners and [then], his prayer ended, he embraced his mother, saying: "Peace be to you, my mother. Rest in God who created you and me." And having said this, he turned to his disciples, saying: "May God's grace and mercy be with you." Then before their eyes the four angels carried him up into heaven."
http://www.barnabas.net/chapters/269-221-jesus-chargeth-barnabas-to-write.html
Jack, I'm still waiting. Jack, atheists, some of them try to disprove Christianity by saying Jesus was a myth, a repeated, corrupted legend through time. Muslims do not. Muslims testify of him. Jews, many of them hate him. Which is which, Jack?
This would be my last comment if you do not respond. May God guide us always. Amin.
And he reproved many who believed that he had died and risen again, saying: "Do you hold me and God for liars? I said to you that God has granted to me to live almost to the end of the world. Truly I say to you, I did not die; it was Judas the traitor. Beware, for Satan will make every effort to deceive you. Be my witnesses in Israel, and throughout the world, of all things that you have heard and seen."
And having said this, he prayed God for the salvation of the faithful, and the conversion of sinners and [then], his prayer ended, he embraced his mother, saying: "Peace be to you, my mother. Rest in God who created you and me." And having said this, he turned to his disciples, saying: "May God's grace and mercy be with you." Then before their eyes the four angels carried him up into heaven."
http://www.barnabas.net/chapters/269-221-jesus-chargeth-barnabas-to-write.html
Jack, I'm still waiting. Jack, atheists, some of them try to disprove Christianity by saying Jesus was a myth, a repeated, corrupted legend through time. Muslims do not. Muslims testify of him. Jews, many of them hate him. Which is which, Jack?
This would be my last comment if you do not respond. May God guide us always. Amin.
The servant of God said...Last, but not least, for you Oswin.
"Accordingly the governor and the priest and the king prayed Jesus that in order to quiet the people he should mount up into a lofty place and speak to the people. Then went up Jesus on to one of the twelve stones which Joshua made the twelve tribes take up from the midst of Jordan, when all Israel passed over there dry shod; and he said with a loud voice: `Let our priest go up into a high place whence he may confirm my words.' Thereupon the priest went up thither; to whom Jesus said distinctly, so that everyone might hear: `It is written in the testament and covenant of the living God that our God hath had no beginning, neither shall he ever have an end.'
The priest answered: `Even so is it written therein.'
Jesus said: `It is written there that our God by his word alone hath created all things.'
`Even so it is,' said the priest.
Jesus said: `It is written there that God is invisible and hidden from the mind of man, seeing he is incorporeal and uncomposed, without variableness.'
`So is it, truly,' said the priest.
Jesus said: `It is written there how that the heaven of heavens cannot contain him, seeing that our God is infinite.'
`So said Solomon the prophet,' said the priest, `O Jesus.'
Said Jesus: `It is written there that God hath no need, forasmuch as he eateth not, sleepeth not, and suffereth not from any deficiency.'
`So is it,' said the priest.
Said Jesus: `It is written there that our God is everywhere, and that there is not any other god but he, who striketh down and maketh whole, and doeth all that pleaseth him.'
`So is it written,' replied the priest.
Then Jesus, having lifted up his hands, said: `Lord our God, this is my faith wherewith I shall come to thy judgement; in testimony against every one that shall believe the contrary.' And turning himself towards the people, he said: `Repent, for from all that of which the priest hath said that it is written in the book of Moses, the covenant of God for ever, ye may perceive your sin; for that I am a visible man and a morsel of clay that walketh upon the earth, mortal as are other men. And I have had a beginning, and shall have an end, and [am] such that I cannot create a fly over again.'
Thereupon the people raised their voices weeping, and said: `We have sinned, Lord our God, against thee; have mercy upon us.' And they prayed Jesus, every one, that he would pray for the safety of the holy city, that our God in his anger should not give it over to be trodden down of the nations. Thereupon Jesus, having lifted up his hands, prayed for the holy city and for the people of God, every one crying: `So be it,' Amen.
"Accordingly the governor and the priest and the king prayed Jesus that in order to quiet the people he should mount up into a lofty place and speak to the people. Then went up Jesus on to one of the twelve stones which Joshua made the twelve tribes take up from the midst of Jordan, when all Israel passed over there dry shod; and he said with a loud voice: `Let our priest go up into a high place whence he may confirm my words.' Thereupon the priest went up thither; to whom Jesus said distinctly, so that everyone might hear: `It is written in the testament and covenant of the living God that our God hath had no beginning, neither shall he ever have an end.'
The priest answered: `Even so is it written therein.'
Jesus said: `It is written there that our God by his word alone hath created all things.'
`Even so it is,' said the priest.
Jesus said: `It is written there that God is invisible and hidden from the mind of man, seeing he is incorporeal and uncomposed, without variableness.'
`So is it, truly,' said the priest.
Jesus said: `It is written there how that the heaven of heavens cannot contain him, seeing that our God is infinite.'
`So said Solomon the prophet,' said the priest, `O Jesus.'
Said Jesus: `It is written there that God hath no need, forasmuch as he eateth not, sleepeth not, and suffereth not from any deficiency.'
`So is it,' said the priest.
Said Jesus: `It is written there that our God is everywhere, and that there is not any other god but he, who striketh down and maketh whole, and doeth all that pleaseth him.'
`So is it written,' replied the priest.
Then Jesus, having lifted up his hands, said: `Lord our God, this is my faith wherewith I shall come to thy judgement; in testimony against every one that shall believe the contrary.' And turning himself towards the people, he said: `Repent, for from all that of which the priest hath said that it is written in the book of Moses, the covenant of God for ever, ye may perceive your sin; for that I am a visible man and a morsel of clay that walketh upon the earth, mortal as are other men. And I have had a beginning, and shall have an end, and [am] such that I cannot create a fly over again.'
Thereupon the people raised their voices weeping, and said: `We have sinned, Lord our God, against thee; have mercy upon us.' And they prayed Jesus, every one, that he would pray for the safety of the holy city, that our God in his anger should not give it over to be trodden down of the nations. Thereupon Jesus, having lifted up his hands, prayed for the holy city and for the people of God, every one crying: `So be it,' Amen.
Jack Flash said...Srizals.
Last word. It has nothing to do with wine, but the EVIDENCE that verifies the truth or fallacy of a document. Barrels were NOT used for the storing of wine until centuries after the so called 'gospel' of Barnabas was allegedly written.
You can quote a fiction as truth until you are blue in the face, you can even believe it is true. But if there is a glaring error like this, it will never BE true.
All you have been quoting is an obvious scrambled, garbled fiction based on the original gospels.
Are you so blind that you cannot see it, or do you just not want to accept the truth that Jesus Christ died to set you free?. Ask the Almighty to open your eyes and reveal his wonderful, amazing love for whoever you really are. Beg him who Angels worship to forgive your sins and set you free.
I write not as a debater or critic, but as a friend. END.
Jack.
Last word. It has nothing to do with wine, but the EVIDENCE that verifies the truth or fallacy of a document. Barrels were NOT used for the storing of wine until centuries after the so called 'gospel' of Barnabas was allegedly written.
You can quote a fiction as truth until you are blue in the face, you can even believe it is true. But if there is a glaring error like this, it will never BE true.
All you have been quoting is an obvious scrambled, garbled fiction based on the original gospels.
Are you so blind that you cannot see it, or do you just not want to accept the truth that Jesus Christ died to set you free?. Ask the Almighty to open your eyes and reveal his wonderful, amazing love for whoever you really are. Beg him who Angels worship to forgive your sins and set you free.
I write not as a debater or critic, but as a friend. END.
Jack.
srizals said...Jack,
"The first sign of the vine we all know and love were sixty million year old fossils which means that our pre human ancestor may well have come to realize that the older grapes will have been more desirable as we can observe with our animal friends today who tend to prefer riper fruit. The earliest remnants of wine were discovered in the site of Hajji Firuz Tepe in the northern Zagros Mountains of Iran. The wine dated back to the Neolithic period (8500-4000 B.C.) Carbon dating confirmed that the wine was from sometime between 5400-5000 B.C. Although no earlier dating wine has been found it is though that the art of wine making started shortly after 6000 B.C."
http://www.arenaflowers.com/wine_club_online/history_of_wine
"The Greek historian Herodotus noted that ancient Mesopotamians used barrels made of palm wood to transport wine along the Euphrates. Palm is a difficult material to bend and fashion into barrels, however, and wine merchants in different regions experimented with different wood styles to find a better wood source"
H. Johnson Vintage: The Story of Wine pg 25-26 Simon and Schuster 1989
Do you know how ancient the Mesopotamians were? 3,500 BC! And they invented the wheel.
"The history of the wooden barrel is sketchy; would-be artifacts have been lost to rot.
The generally accepted story begins with northern Europeans (Celts) living around the Alps (what today is Germany and France). Their environment provided timber in terrific quality (oak is exceptionally suited to barrel-making) and quantity. The general economy provided an increasing demand for storage, and transportation, containers. From all this, and a little ingenuity, the wooden barrel emerged in around 300BC.
This technology did not stay local for long... by a coincidence of history, our clever woodworker was about to be overrun by the Roman Empire. Unfortunate for the Celts... good for the spread of barrel-making."
https://sites.google.com/a/kwtastings.com/www/somehistoryofthebarrel
Jack, 300 BC. (Before Christ!)
How did you come to the conclusion that wooden barrel was not even invented and used during Jesus time?
Jack, what about the errors in the other gospels? Would it be invalidators too?
"The first sign of the vine we all know and love were sixty million year old fossils which means that our pre human ancestor may well have come to realize that the older grapes will have been more desirable as we can observe with our animal friends today who tend to prefer riper fruit. The earliest remnants of wine were discovered in the site of Hajji Firuz Tepe in the northern Zagros Mountains of Iran. The wine dated back to the Neolithic period (8500-4000 B.C.) Carbon dating confirmed that the wine was from sometime between 5400-5000 B.C. Although no earlier dating wine has been found it is though that the art of wine making started shortly after 6000 B.C."
http://www.arenaflowers.com/wine_club_online/history_of_wine
"The Greek historian Herodotus noted that ancient Mesopotamians used barrels made of palm wood to transport wine along the Euphrates. Palm is a difficult material to bend and fashion into barrels, however, and wine merchants in different regions experimented with different wood styles to find a better wood source"
H. Johnson Vintage: The Story of Wine pg 25-26 Simon and Schuster 1989
Do you know how ancient the Mesopotamians were? 3,500 BC! And they invented the wheel.
"The history of the wooden barrel is sketchy; would-be artifacts have been lost to rot.
The generally accepted story begins with northern Europeans (Celts) living around the Alps (what today is Germany and France). Their environment provided timber in terrific quality (oak is exceptionally suited to barrel-making) and quantity. The general economy provided an increasing demand for storage, and transportation, containers. From all this, and a little ingenuity, the wooden barrel emerged in around 300BC.
This technology did not stay local for long... by a coincidence of history, our clever woodworker was about to be overrun by the Roman Empire. Unfortunate for the Celts... good for the spread of barrel-making."
https://sites.google.com/a/kwtastings.com/www/somehistoryofthebarrel
Jack, 300 BC. (Before Christ!)
How did you come to the conclusion that wooden barrel was not even invented and used during Jesus time?
Jack, what about the errors in the other gospels? Would it be invalidators too?
srizals said...Jack, if you want to ignore the gospel of Barnabas, fine, but how about Romans 1:23?
srizals said...You can double check it yourself,
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201:23&version=ESV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201:23&version=ESV
